The official Jaime Garcia injury freak out thread
Posted on September 3rd, 2008 by erik in Jaime GarciaWell, I’m not really freaking out, but I’m not too happy about the situation, either. In lieu of an afternoon post, feel free to discuss the situation here. Obviously losing your top ranked starting pitching prospect for the next season hurts. While some have blamed his usage, it’s been pointed out that Jaime’s mechanics are less than ideal.
I promise I’ll get that Scott Gorgen Q and A up very soon. I’ve been really busy, but am getting closer to having it transcribed.
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Sucks, but the Cards should have enough candidates for that fifth rotation spot this off-season to weather it. Would’ve been nice to have a lefty in the rotation.
I’m becoming more alarmed at the tremendous amount of TJs required for Cardinal pitchers. Obviously, I’m not paying as much attention to other organizations, but it’s worrisome nonetheless. The Birds definitely have Dr Andrews on speed-dial.
I am hoping that this is a remnant of the prior regime’s scouting and signing philosophy, which mostly ignored pitching mechanics. I also think that the rate will drop over the next few years.
However, I will put my allegiance up for bid if the Cardinals actually sign AJ Burnett, because that would mean that nothing has really changed (or improved).
I for one would support at AJ signing at a price of 4 years and $50M or so (I know, probably not going to happen). My view is that the premise is that the Cards need to put together a team that can compete during Albert’s peak year and, accordingly, need to take risks now…
Anywho, as for Jaime, I am shocked and appalled (dramatic much) that this was not mentioned previously – if you were watching Jaime pitch with the Cards, his velo and location appeared to be way down. This was also the case mid-way through the AAA season. You would think “someone” would have some idea after Jaime being shut down last year… DUH?!?! Injuries happen, I just wish Jaime would have spent this year shut down vs. next year (Carpenter De Ja Vu?)
The Dunc curse strikes again with young LHP. I think I called this one when he was first promoted.
Donovan Osborne
Rick Ankiel
Bud Smith
Mark Mulder
Tyler Johnson
Jaime Garcia
I’m not too concerned about it. Lots of pitchers do have this procedure and come back fine. I’m just glad it’s happening when he’s barely 22 and not in a position that puts the big club in a bind trying to replace him in the rotation.
“I for one would support at AJ signing at a price of 4 years and $50M or so (I know, probably not going to happen). My view is that the premise is that the Cards need to put together a team that can compete during Albert’s peak year and, accordingly, need to take risks now…”
I think this would be a huge mistake (in the order of the recent Carpenter deal).
Because of his poor pitching mechanics, AJ Burnett is one of the highest-risk pitchers out there.
So I’m guessing that we’ll resign Looper for something like Pineiro got last year, and our 2009 rotation will be Carp (until hurt), Wainwright, Wellemeyer, Looper, and Pineiro.
Memphis – Todd, PJ, Boggs, Mort, and Fiske
Springfield – Furnish, Dickson, Ottavino, Mura, Herron
PB – Castillo, Fick, Additon, Diapoules, Garceau
QC – Hooker, Lynn, Kulick, Gorgen, Nieto, Eager
Anyone else wonder if there is a connection between the org focus on, throw sinkers from a high arm slot, and the rash of injuries?
I have been worried ever since I heard the advice that mulder and more recently flores got. Someone was trying to get flores to stand more upright and throw with less drive towards the plate acording to the anouncers. That just sounds like a sure way to hurt yourself since you are then using just your arm and shoulder to generate most of the energy to throw the ball.
This was a question of when not if. I didn’t think he looked good at all the second half of the season. He will pobably come back stronger from this.
Wellemyer is next on the list. I really think he has damaged his elbow this season and will need surgery.
“Anyone else wonder if there is a connection between the org focus on, throw sinkers from a high arm slot, and the rash of injuries?”
No.
A sinker is actually a very safe pitch to throw because it requires pronation which protects the elbow.
A more likely theory would be DD’s emphasis on teaching everyone the cutter (cut fastball), which like the slider requires powerful supination (which focuses the load on the UCL).
Also, throwing from a higher arm slot won’t raise injury rates. However, it might impact one’s control by making it harder to avoid a big head jerk (ala Okajima).
“I have been worried ever since I heard the advice that mulder and more recently flores got. Someone was trying to get flores to stand more upright and throw with less drive towards the plate acording to the anouncers. That just sounds like a sure way to hurt yourself since you are then using just your arm and shoulder to generate most of the energy to throw the ball”
If true, you could argue that this is questionable advice. However, the stride is generally over-rated as a source of power. What is much more important is hip/shoulder separation.
“Wellemyer is next on the list. I really think he has damaged his elbow this season and will need surgery.”
Wellemeyer’s mechanics are certainly questionable and I don’t think his mid-season elbow problems were a fluke.
I cam just to say AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Get well, Jaime.
with is elbow history he was going to need the surgery at some point. i am rather glad (obviously not for him personally) it is now when we arent needing to count on him for much next year as oppsed to a couple years from now when he could be a top of the line pitcher for us…i just hope he takes it nice and slow and recovers fully from this!
I would tend to agree with most posters here that Garcia’s problems likely stem from his apparent continued battles with his elbow.
That being said, I think sooner or later, with pitchers being babied more and more – I think the “you learn my pitches and you pitch my way” method of coaching is going by the wayside. Anthony Reyes could well be the poster boy for this before all is said and done.
I’m not really that surprised or concerned. I would much rather have this happen at 22 than in a couple of years when he has become depended upon in the rotation. While I would like to add a lefty to our rotation, our division is still heavy on right handed hitters so a lefty is less of a need than if we played in the AL East for instance.
In order to determine what exactly caused Garcia’s issues, one might have to go back to his history of pitching when he was younger. Damage is accumulative for all pitchers, too many innings when young before the body develops, what pitches were relied on, rest between starts all contribute to the eventual breakdown of pitchers (and in some way they all break down). The elbow is fixable, unlike shoulders that can stop a pitcher’s career right in his tracks.
I think this is not uncommon among many teams, you just don’t follow it as closely as you all follow here.
One thing I have noticed, the rush to move everyone up so quickly. Moving up means harder work for some that aren’t ready. I have also noticed on other teams, college pitchers that put in a big workload in a compressed schedule get fewer innings their rookie ss. And bringing in a college starter who pitched every 7 days now has to piggyback every four days, that’s a tough nut to crack, in my opinion.
So do any of you think that any of our current minor league pitchers will become solid starters under Duncan? Or are we going to continue relying on DD to work his magic on cheap journeyman like Looper, Lohse, Wellemeyer, Pineiro, Suppan, Woody, and even Carpenter? I think we’re more likely to go after Pavano than Burnett this offseason.
Thanks Chris
“A sinker is actually a very safe pitch to throw because it requires pronation which protects the elbow.
A more likely theory would be DD’s emphasis on teaching everyone the cutter (cut fastball), which like the slider requires powerful supination (which focuses the load on the UCL).”
This leads me to another question that I have asked before. I once did a quick analysis of the pitch types pitchers threw as Cards vs with other teams for those that moved since the data was available.
What I found was the team does seem to favor sliders and cutters while opossing the changeup. Never understood this.
BTW: I have no problem with pitchers throwing sinkers. My bigger issue is the tinkering with mechanics to make it a primary pitch for pitchers that didn’t start with that natural action.
And how long before we find out that K-Mac’s arm is fried? His ERA in his last 10 appearances is a Kelvin Jimenez-like 7.36.
You’d think with the expanded rosters, they wouldn’t have to keep pitching him everyday…
Jason Motte!
Nice debut. 1 1/3, one hit, no runs. 25 pitches, 21 strikes, including 7 fouls by Augie Ojeda.
Tony and Dunc must be beside themselves watching Motte mow down the D-Backs after trotting out Franklin and Izzy all year.
Motte was fun to watch. Saw a great FB and 2 iffy secondary pitches. One looked like a cutter and the other a splitter or changeup.
I was a strong advocate of using the baby gloves on Garcia early on. I backed off it eventually. It may have been inevitable anyway…who knows. I’m bummed about it though.
Chris, I’d also like to hear any thoughts you have on McClellan. I think he’s been laboring and would like for them to just shut him down the rest of this season. Clearly he’s had some history of trouble, to say the least. Do you have any observations/thoughts regarding him?
Anyone else wonder if there is a connection between the org focus on, throw sinkers from a high arm slot, and the rash of injuries?”
No.
A sinker is actually a very safe pitch to throw because it requires pronation which protects the elbow.
A more likely theory would be DD’s emphasis on teaching everyone the cutter (cut fastball), which like the slider requires powerful supination (which focuses the load on the UCL).
Also, throwing from a higher arm slot won’t raise injury rates. However, it might impact one’s control by making it harder to avoid a big head jerk (ala Okajima).
“I have been worried ever since I heard the advice that mulder and more recently flores got. Someone was trying to get flores to stand more upright and throw with less drive towards the plate acording to the anouncers. That just sounds like a sure way to hurt yourself since you are then using just your arm and shoulder to generate most of the energy to throw the ball”
If true, you could argue that this is questionable advice. However, the stride is generally over-rated as a source of power. What is much more important is hip/shoulder separation.
Thanks for the info, do you think you are some kind of mechanics expert or something? ;) haha
Garcia was a great discovery, overlooked down by the Rio Grande. The Cards worked him hard for 1.5 years, before he came down with the sore elbow last season. By that time, Duncan had not even seen him yet.
One of Garcia’s best pitches is a curve. That can hard on an elbow or as Wainwright has found out, a finger.
Garcia rested up late last year. But his elbow became a problem again. He should return in 2010 and could work as a reliever for a year and then the organization can decide whether he should return to starting. He could be terrific in the limited role of reliever.
“And how long before we find out that K-Mac’s arm is fried? His ERA in his last 10 appearances is a Kelvin Jimenez-like 7.36.”
Wouldn’t be the first time. Yet Duncan continues to insist this guy should be ready to be a starter next season.
Too much injury history, already too many innings on the arm this season, needs to be more comfortably in the 50-55 IP range, IMO, to be successful for an entire season.
With a reasonable bullpen, that would be a great contribution. They’ve just asked too much from a guy who hasn’t thrown more than 60 IP since 2004, when, you guessed it – he hurt his elbow in his last season as a full-time starter.
“Chris, I’d also like to hear any thoughts you have on McClellan. I think he’s been laboring and would like for them to just shut him down the rest of this season. Clearly he’s had some history of trouble, to say the least. Do you have any observations/thoughts regarding him?”
I have some video that I’ll try to post.
He’s not terrible but he’s a bit borderline. He may have a slight timing problem, which is never good.