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	<title>Comments on: Pitching Health: Workloads in Review</title>
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	<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/</link>
	<description>Baseball&#039;s Future in the Gateway City</description>
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		<title>By: roarke</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3402</link>
		<dc:creator>roarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3402</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That makes sense.  I probably jumped to the conclusion that he didn&#039;t play that year since that season is mysteriously missing from his Baseball Cube page.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That makes sense.  I probably jumped to the conclusion that he didn&#8217;t play that year since that season is mysteriously missing from his Baseball Cube page.</p>
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		<title>By: reddawg</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3399</link>
		<dc:creator>reddawg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mitchell did play football the fall of 2003 but went back to Georgia the spring semester of 2004 and played baseball again so he never missed a baseball season.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitchell did play football the fall of 2003 but went back to Georgia the spring semester of 2004 and played baseball again so he never missed a baseball season.</p>
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		<title>By: roarke</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3394</link>
		<dc:creator>roarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[reddawg:

Interesting, you appear to be correct according to this page: https://admin.xosn.com/fls/8800/stats/baseball/2004/teamcume.html, which is from the official Georgia Baseball website, but The Baseball Cube has no stats for him here: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Mitchell-Boggs.shtml and I swear when I was doing the pre-season post I read that he took a year off to try his hand at being a quarterback somewhere.

Thanks for the correction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>reddawg:</p>
<p>Interesting, you appear to be correct according to this page: <a href="https://admin.xosn.com/fls/8800/stats/baseball/2004/teamcume.html" rel="nofollow">https://admin.xosn.com/fls/8800/stats/baseball/2004/teamcume.html</a>, which is from the official Georgia Baseball website, but The Baseball Cube has no stats for him here: <a href="http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Mitchell-Boggs.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Mitchell-Boggs.shtml</a> and I swear when I was doing the pre-season post I read that he took a year off to try his hand at being a quarterback somewhere.</p>
<p>Thanks for the correction.</p>
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		<title>By: reddawg</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3392</link>
		<dc:creator>reddawg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your info is wrong about Mitchell, he pitched at Georgia in 2004, one of the years they went to the CWS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your info is wrong about Mitchell, he pitched at Georgia in 2004, one of the years they went to the CWS.</p>
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		<title>By: cariocacardinal</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3385</link>
		<dc:creator>cariocacardinal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One more note on innings as it pertains to Garcia.  He did not pitch HS ball in 2005 as he had returned to Mexico after being drafted by Baltimore in 2004.   I&#039;m sure he ptiched for some amatuer team in Mexico though ( I read an article about the Cardinals seeing him in an international amatuer tournament in summer 2004).  Also he spent the 2005 year after signing in July in Johnson City but couldn&#039;t pitch in games due to a visa issue.  He most likely pitched some simulted games (do those innings count?).  He also spent the Winter in the Dominican Instructional league (more innings?).

The bottom line is that many of these guys pitch a lot of innings that may not show up in formal records both prior to being drafted and even sometimes afterwards.   I don&#039;t know if those innings are as stressful or not (maybe more so?) or how well temas track them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more note on innings as it pertains to Garcia.  He did not pitch HS ball in 2005 as he had returned to Mexico after being drafted by Baltimore in 2004.   I&#8217;m sure he ptiched for some amatuer team in Mexico though ( I read an article about the Cardinals seeing him in an international amatuer tournament in summer 2004).  Also he spent the 2005 year after signing in July in Johnson City but couldn&#8217;t pitch in games due to a visa issue.  He most likely pitched some simulted games (do those innings count?).  He also spent the Winter in the Dominican Instructional league (more innings?).</p>
<p>The bottom line is that many of these guys pitch a lot of innings that may not show up in formal records both prior to being drafted and even sometimes afterwards.   I don&#8217;t know if those innings are as stressful or not (maybe more so?) or how well temas track them.</p>
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		<title>By: roarke</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3384</link>
		<dc:creator>roarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lou/cario:

I probably should have been more explicit about this in the post (I think I explained this in the comments during the pre-season post, too), but innings pitched are sort of a proxy for workload.  Lou is absolutely right: pitch counts would be a much more valuable method of tracking workload, but we don&#039;t always have that information and sometimes the information is unreliable.  Instead, we have to assume that for every 6 pitch inning that a pitcher throws he&#039;s going to have a 20 pitch inning and over the long haul it probably evens out fairly well.  It isn&#039;t perfect, but it is the best we have.  I feel the same way about summer ball, instructional leagues (notwithstanding that I did include Garcia&#039;s 8 IP of instructs), winter leagues, fall leagues, team USA innings and spring training.  Including all that stuff would be great, but a lot of that information isn&#039;t available or is unreliable (plus it would have made the post unwieldy).  So I just use regular season innings as a proxy for all those things.  As a result it can make it look like the college players had a bit of a bigger jump than is realistic when they start pro ball.

As for whether those innings are different - it is difficult to say.  You wouldn&#039;t think so, but Will Carroll has said that his studies have shown that minor league innings don&#039;t translate (as far as workload towards the Verducci Rule goes) to MLB innings, so perhaps the further away from MLB you get, the less the innings mean workload-wise.

Again, I don&#039;t think there is a one-for-one causal relationship here, but I think there is a lot of value in tracking the workload of a young pitcher and refraining from any huge jumps.  That being said, I think the Cardinals did a pretty solid job of that this year with all of these guys.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lou/cario:</p>
<p>I probably should have been more explicit about this in the post (I think I explained this in the comments during the pre-season post, too), but innings pitched are sort of a proxy for workload.  Lou is absolutely right: pitch counts would be a much more valuable method of tracking workload, but we don&#8217;t always have that information and sometimes the information is unreliable.  Instead, we have to assume that for every 6 pitch inning that a pitcher throws he&#8217;s going to have a 20 pitch inning and over the long haul it probably evens out fairly well.  It isn&#8217;t perfect, but it is the best we have.  I feel the same way about summer ball, instructional leagues (notwithstanding that I did include Garcia&#8217;s 8 IP of instructs), winter leagues, fall leagues, team USA innings and spring training.  Including all that stuff would be great, but a lot of that information isn&#8217;t available or is unreliable (plus it would have made the post unwieldy).  So I just use regular season innings as a proxy for all those things.  As a result it can make it look like the college players had a bit of a bigger jump than is realistic when they start pro ball.</p>
<p>As for whether those innings are different &#8211; it is difficult to say.  You wouldn&#8217;t think so, but Will Carroll has said that his studies have shown that minor league innings don&#8217;t translate (as far as workload towards the Verducci Rule goes) to MLB innings, so perhaps the further away from MLB you get, the less the innings mean workload-wise.</p>
<p>Again, I don&#8217;t think there is a one-for-one causal relationship here, but I think there is a lot of value in tracking the workload of a young pitcher and refraining from any huge jumps.  That being said, I think the Cardinals did a pretty solid job of that this year with all of these guys.</p>
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		<title>By: cariocacardinal</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3383</link>
		<dc:creator>cariocacardinal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not positive but pretty sure that the idea of Garcia not gaining time towards FA is wrong.  I believe since he is on the 40 man roster that he will have to go on the 60 day DL rather than be optioned out and while on the DL he will gain time towards FA, arbitration, and draw a major league salary.  The only option would be to remove him from the 40 man roster which would require waivers (which I think some team would take him and let him ride out the DL on their 40 man roster).   I won&#039;t be surprised to see Parisi removed from the 40 man roster (and due to less upside, I would expect him to clear waivers.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not positive but pretty sure that the idea of Garcia not gaining time towards FA is wrong.  I believe since he is on the 40 man roster that he will have to go on the 60 day DL rather than be optioned out and while on the DL he will gain time towards FA, arbitration, and draw a major league salary.  The only option would be to remove him from the 40 man roster which would require waivers (which I think some team would take him and let him ride out the DL on their 40 man roster).   I won&#8217;t be surprised to see Parisi removed from the 40 man roster (and due to less upside, I would expect him to clear waivers.)</p>
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		<title>By: cariocacardinal</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3382</link>
		<dc:creator>cariocacardinal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You don&#039;t think the college guys played summer ball?  Are those innings different?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t think the college guys played summer ball?  Are those innings different?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Lou Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3381</link>
		<dc:creator>Lou Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3381</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Roarke, thanks for an interesting analysis.

Just for the sake of discussion, I wonder if IP is the best way to assess workload. 

Garcia was a ground-ball-throwing machine. He also had a healthy strikeout rate but low walk rate. So how many pitches per inning was he throwing, typically?

I have to guess that guys struggling with their command, like Ottavino, throw more pitches per inning. Garcia was just breezing through the low minors, so those 159 innings might&#039;ve been less stressful on his arm than they&#039;d have been if his pitch counts were higher.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roarke, thanks for an interesting analysis.</p>
<p>Just for the sake of discussion, I wonder if IP is the best way to assess workload. </p>
<p>Garcia was a ground-ball-throwing machine. He also had a healthy strikeout rate but low walk rate. So how many pitches per inning was he throwing, typically?</p>
<p>I have to guess that guys struggling with their command, like Ottavino, throw more pitches per inning. Garcia was just breezing through the low minors, so those 159 innings might&#8217;ve been less stressful on his arm than they&#8217;d have been if his pitch counts were higher.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.futureredbirds.net/2008/10/21/pitching-health-workloads-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3373</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.futureredbirds.net/?p=1201#comment-3373</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This looks pretty good to me.  Someone in the organization seems to be paying attention to these things.

Wonder what history is like here?  How did Dan Haren, Anthony Reyes, Chris Lambert, Chris Narveson do on these charts?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This looks pretty good to me.  Someone in the organization seems to be paying attention to these things.</p>
<p>Wonder what history is like here?  How did Dan Haren, Anthony Reyes, Chris Lambert, Chris Narveson do on these charts?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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