So much for the closer of the future. Mark DeRosa is a good player, and the Cardinals are in an obvious need of offense rather than bullpen help, but my initial reaction this is a steep price for just a rental. Franklin may eventually run out of magic pixie dust, Jason Motte, Kyle McClellan and Jess Todd just do not the stuff Perez has and I don’t think any of them will ever be more than middle relievers. Now, unless Francisco Samuel can figure out how to throw strikes over the next season and a half, or Motte can learn another pitch, the Cardinals will be driven to the free agent market to overpay for some 9th inning reliever after Franklin’s contract runs out next year.
I would have to think the PTBNL is a “C” grade guy, or at least I would certainly hope so.
The flip side is that Perez may never harness his control to be a closer, but even as a good set up reliever, that should be worth more wins in the long run.
I think all the Cardinals are getting out of this is a win, maybe two tops. Flags fly forever, so if that means playoffs, then great. But it puts them in a bad spot a year or two down the road. I don’t hate this trade, but I don’t love it like some people do.
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i agree it’s a pretty steep price to pay…motte is getting used alot this year and it’s starting to show..perez in my mind will have a better major league career than motte ..on the bright side, if they don’t offer arbitration or resign derosa don’t they get a draft pick for him?
I like Perez a lot better than Motte, and the Cardinals might have even tried to deal Motte instead of Perez. However, this is a deal that needed to be made, and young relief pitching is an area of strength for the Cardinals. I hope the PTBN isn’t significant, because Perez is a pretty big price to pay for a rental.
Now, it’s time to trade for Holliday, and this lineup will be looking a lot better.
This is a pretty good trade for the Indians, if you ask me. That being said, the Cardinals NEED infield depth. They are really struggling.
I would rather them traded Motte. I was a big fan of perez. Hes already proven he can stick at the age of 24 and he would have been a nice option out of the pen for the next several seasons. Meanwhile Motte is still trying to develop a 2nd pitch.
I liked Perez too. I guess the Holliday rumors are done then huh? Not sure what to think of this trade.
“GM Mark Shapiro said the PTBN component is an important one, akin to the Coco Crisp and Michael Brantley acquisitions in the past.”
http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/derosa_to_the_cardinals.html
for whatever that is worth.
Shapiro kinda has to spin it like that.
well that sucks.
Shouldn’t we consider that DeRosa will most likely be a Type B FA when evaluating this trade? If we look at this as DeRosa + sandwich pick for Perez and PTBNL I think this is a big win for the Cards.
If he’s a B, this is a great point to remember.
I disagree. Perez hasn’t ever gotten his BB rate under control, even after dropping his velocity by 2-3 mph. We have a ton of talented RHP who are major league ready or close to it.
Erik, you and I are the only people on this bandwagon. Thanks for joining me.
They would only get a comp pick for DeRosa if they DO offer him arbitration and he declines, I think.
correct
i would have rather have seen motte go, but you can’t deny this makes us better for this year. now we just have to hope that one of francisco samuel, eduardo sanchez, adam reifer, or joe kelly can step up and replace perez sometime soon. sanchez seems like the mostly likely candidate as he is the one that throws the most strikes.
I like the trade but I do understand your thoughts Erik. I think that Perez has a high ceiling if he can ever put it together. I think we would all rather trade Chris Duncan and Jon Jay but clearly we had to give up something of worth. I disagree about letting Motte go as well – I think his potential is very high as well and I think it says something that TLR & Duncan like him better than Perez.
Bottom line – the management had to do something legitimate. Losing Carp & Wainwright pitched games 3-2 is unacceptable. DeRosa is no Holliday but I think it gives us a legitimate bat. If we can sign him to an extension this becomes a much better deal, IMO
he’s 34. This is his peak. He will not get better from here, but worse, and possibly not all that gradually. I’d rather offer him arbi and hope he declines and get a draft pick
I would of much rather had Wallace try out the position at the MLB level, than trade Perez. From what I was seeing he was the future closer.
Wallace is another LH bat and he’s still adjusting to AAA. That would have been a heck of a rush job imo.
This is a joke no ands ifs or butts about it!!!!!!!!!!! DeRosa sucks!!!
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Erik I am with you, I have watched CP since he pitched at UM. It just takes some guys longer than others, but he is a legit prospect.
But who knows, sometimes players get traded and they flourish under a new system and new managers.
Ever since they moved Todd to closer, it seemed like Perez’ days were numbered. Scherer could probably fill Perez’ current role, if Perez even had a role under TLR/Duncan.
Since the end of last year, we’ve been dumping right-handed relievers at an alarming rate.
Holliday is no Holliday….take him out of Coors and his carer OPS is .850. After his initial slump this year, his OPS is .860 (still only .806 for the year). Fine for a corner OF, but not great, and almost certainly not worth what the A’s will be asking, and he’ll cost a lot more than DeRosa for the rest of the year.
They better not be throwing in Wallace, Craig, Freese, or Stavinoha. I hope its Hoff… or Barden….
Azru- I don’t think Wallace is ready yet, but I think he could be ready by sept. I’m just saying I don’t like losing Perez.
I must be missing something we traded a guy that turns 24 next month that has a good 10 years in the league ahead of him for 34 year old guy currently hitting .270 with a .278 career avg and we are going crazy? I guess I must not understand this. Oh thats right he has 13 Hr’s and 50 RBI’s this year. Well the days of roid use are in the past and I don’t see this guy improving after age 35. When the bull pen starts stinking it up again everyone will be compalining. Maybe we can have Ank pick out of the pen?
This trade sucks… period! 24 year old for 34 year old? Chris Duncan hits .250 and everyone is saying he stinks. How is .270 that much better? If the Mgmt would have just signed someone in the off season in stead of being cheap butts we wouldn’t be having to get screwed today. You can quote this “When Chris is an all star caliber closer in 2 years and Derosa is hitting .230 some where else tell me how good this trade was then”.
I too would have rather seen Motte go instead of Perez but I’m definitely pleased with this trade. The team that is in place in St. Louis now could easily win a championship with DeRosa’s help.
I have no problem dealing from a position of strength to fill a major hole at 3rd base and maybe even in the 4 hole.
The situation with DeRosa is perfect. He is cheap this year and you can either offer him just a 2 year extension which would be ideal, or you get a sandwich round pick for him.
i like this trade a lot better if ludwick starts hitting. if he can get back close to where he was last year in the 4 hole with derosa hitting 5th you start to have a pretty darn good lineup.
I think DeRosa helps significantly this season for a lot of reasons I won’t get into here. I agree Perez could be a fantastic bullpen guy, if he straightens out his control issues eventually. Still, I guess a big reason I support the trade is that, as a general premise, I think the bullpen is the place to trade from. I just think you can find a lot of arms that can get people out for an inning or so. I know….that sounds stupid considering what the big club went through last year, but it’s useful to remember that part of the problem was running the same “proven” people out there for way too long. Also it is interesting that one of the guys that couldn’t handle it last year has, so far, been outstanding this year. Just illustrates to me how fickle things can get in the pen.
I am saying all this assuming the PTBNL is a guy that won’t be found on top 20 lists.
Redbird – the intention is to make the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, we can rely heavily on Carpenter and Wainwright in the rotation. Throw in Albert Pujols and this team is a serious contender for a WORLD SERIES TITLE! Without more bats, we don’t make the playoffs at all. The Cards SHOULDN’T be done making moves to improve their lineup. I don’t care if we gave up 20 years of Chris Perez, if the Card’s make some noise in the playoffs, then this is the right move. Championships are the name of the game. We should do everything we can to improve the team (within reason) every season in an effort to win titles. Of course you have to be realistic about your chances also. This season, is differant than the last 2 years because Carpenter is healthy. We cannot waste this opportunity and Mo knows it. I’d expect another deal before the deadline.
Oh, and if the PTBNL is Stavinoha, I would laugh my butt off.
“The Indians will scout the St. Louis farm system to determine the second player in the trade. Hard-throwing right-handers Jess Todd and Francisco Samuel are on the list of possibilities, one official with knowledge of the transaction said.
Todd has appeared in one big-league game this season and has a 2.73 ERA in 28 appearances at Triple-A Memphis.
Samuel is 3-3 with a 4.55 ERA in 32 games at Double-A Springfield.”
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9740910/Cards-acquire-versatile-DeRosa-from-Indians
Todd and Samuel are both good prospects. I hope they aren’t the final selection.
Needless to say, I’m a little worried about the PTBNL if those two are part of the grouping.
I would laugh me azz off as well if the PTBNL is Arburr or Stav.
Derosa only had 3 good years out of 11. Take out the 2 years with the Cubs and 1 year in Tex and you have a .260 hitter with no power on your hands.
and they are saying Todd is on the list according to the foxsports link. Todd??? Thats pretty stiff. Kinda like what we got in return for Brian Barten? 0 zip nada left to show for leaving him on the 25 man roster last year.
Is anyone else feeling better about this year’s draft after this deal? All of a sudden Joe Kelly and Scott Bittle(RHRPs) don’t seem as redundant.
needless to say we need both of these guys to move fast, but neither has thrown a pro pitch yet and bittle isn’t even signed. if we do end up losing todd as well, bittle could be a key pick b/c he is basically the same guy as todd. kelly is also pretty similar to perez.
Redbird, what are you talking about? DeRosa has had 4 good years in a row now. What’s wrong with a late bloomer? That is what Ryan Ludwick was last year pretty much. He certainly isn’t a .260 hitter with no power. He’s a .280 hitter with 20 HR power. Lets not get nuts.
To be fair, I think we should take a moment to acknowledge john month and say “miller+mateo+ derosa” is some “dry powder.” He took a drubbing in the off-season (or dewitt did). Even if you see that trio as two steps forward and one step back, in a year when many teams are shedding salary, he’s lived up to his promises on the spending front.
Are you using a blackberry?
As to whom the PTBNL will be the Akron (Ohio) Beacon quoted the Indians GM as saying: 1) “it is a piece of significant value for us” and 2) “it is a safe statement that the PTBNL is 2 or more years away”.
That would seem to not include Todd or Samuel whom I do not think would be considered to be “2 or more years away” (Samuel possibly).
It won’t be any of this year’s draft choices since apparently they have agreed to select the player by September 1st.
Let the speculation start.
Interesting part as the story. I think Samuel could be seen as 2 years away, while Todd would not.
Todd + Perez would be a hefty haul.
But, I’m sure the PTBNL got upgraded to get this deal done.
I’d say our low minors are more more short on talent than the high minors. That quote makes me a little more comfortable.
Still a touch nervous though.
Perez plus PTBNL could be a steep price for DeRosa depending on the player not named yet. Would rather have gotten Beltre for Perez and would rather have traded Motte for DeRosa.
On the bright side, if DeRosa can deliver a few game winning hits against the Cubs, that will be a plus. The Cardinals might have been bidding against the Cubs on DeRosa.
re: Matt Holliday, his career OPS at sea level is an unspecial .803
This makes sense, as his career minor league OPS was .780
You know who should trade for Holliday? The Rockies should trade for Holliday. Seriously.
As for DeRosa, hit hits lefties well & offers defensive versatility. He’s been durable, is reportedly a “good clubhouse guy,” and will be with the Cards for more than half the season, rather than just the last two months if acquired at the July 31 deadline. He should be a very helpful addition, at a reasonable price. Good for Mo!
I haven’t been to Viva El Birdos today but the last few days it seems that they’ve had the opposite opinion regarding Perez and Motte that we seem to have here. I actually think this is a reasonable trade if the PTBNL is not a top ten but I do think we’ll miss Perez possibly as early as this year. Still we need more production out of third base and the oufield and DeRosa might take some pressure off of Ankiel and Ludwick to back up Albert. He also seems like a Cardinal kind of guy and I wouldn’t mind seeing him signed for a couple of years. Here’s hoping some of those fireballing minor leaguers are for real and that they get here soon.
Indiana Cardinal, you got Shapiro’s quote wrong. Here is his quote and the link:
Asked if the player were two or more years from reaching the big leagues, Shapiro said, ”That would NOT be a safe statement to make.”
http://www.ohio.com/sports/49351592.html
so it’s probably someone from last year’s draft, at Palm Beach or lower.
I apologize. I read the double negative incorrectly. Sorry for the wrong info.
OOPS, good thing it wasn’t a deal for Beltre-He’s out 6-8 weeks to remove bone spurs from a shoulder!
If the PTBNL is less than two years away then it certainly could be Samuel or Todd or even Lance Lynn. That would really suck.
Todd 2 years away? He was up in St. Louis not that long ago.
I’ll be happy if DeRosa becomes a Type A free agent. I’m not sure how much he has to help the Cardinals to do so, but it will be a win-win. And if he accepts, well he’ll be 35 years old so a one year deal is preferred.
Accepts arbitration, that is.
I dont mind the deal. I did/do like Perez, but lets just wait and see what happends.If Perez becomes an Allstar Closers then we got nailed, but if not and is just a decent middle of the bullpen guy who throws hard then its a good deal. As far as the other player TBD…who cares. its not going to be someone of that great improtance. Both teams have to agree on the list so its clearly someone the cards will be ok with losing.
I think people get too hooked on a prospect and think they are better or could be better than what the could or will be. thats why there is so many levels of the minor leagues.. SO far the only guy i can think of RECENTLY that the cards traded away for someone was Harden. Other than that no one has done anything with their new teams. Anthony Reyes..member him?? he is out for this year with arm issues, and only had a 1-1 record with just as many walk as strike outs…
DeRosa should be the new 3B. He will solidfy that spot and he will be a regular in the lineup…Just dont think he is the savior to everything for this team.
I told you this was coming. Todd or Samuel is probably the PTBNL. Grumble.
oh i ment Danny Haren..Not Harden. duh! lol.
Bottom line you need two guys out of the pen that can come in and strike guys without letting the batter put the ball in play when there’s runners on. Jason Motte can not pitch everyday and there are not any guys at AAA of Perez’s caliber that throw 96 98 that can be brought up. I’ve heard a tone about Matt Sherer and Jesse Todd and have watched both of them… Hello Todd’s FB was between 85 and 89 MPH at STL the one game he was called up. Thats not much… unless he’s the next Teveor Hoffman. Matt Sherer is also not the same caliber. I find it amazing when 6-5 260 pd guys only through 85 to 89 mph fb. I guess there’s no leg drive there… he’s not the next Mark Worrel or Big Lee Smith. The club just exposed J Motte to being over used.
Ryde Rodriguiz better not be on this list either or they will win the stupid award. This would have all been avoided had mgmt just signed spent money on a guy in the offseason. All the guys they brought in Barden, Thurston were league min guys… dumpster dives…
you get what you pay for most of the time. except in the case of K Greene 6.5M, Ludwick, Ank, Mulder, Glaus 12M etc… Can’t add Duncan to this list he only makes 875K.
enjoying the conversation w/ yourself?
Redbird, the only argument I’ve seen from you about DeRosa is that outside of the past 3 years, he didn’t have power, as if the past 3 years has nothing to do with the player he is now; and also that DeRosa is only hitting 20 points higher in batting avg than Duncan, as if batting average comes close to telling what kind of production they bring offensively. Those are weak arguments at best.
if Tony keeps using DeRo as a left fielder, this trade makes even less sense. i hate to see YP go, i think he’ll be a great closer for the Tribe soon. sadly Dunk just f’ed with him too much for him to be successful as a Cardinal.
and if they really did give up Todd or Samuel, MO isn’t half the GM he keeps telling everyone he is.
Nice comment Eric… Thanks…lol. I’ll bet your not one of the people either that look at the Dan Harin trade as idiotic either. This is a dumb move period end of story.
last pitcher we traded to cleveland ended up having tommy john surgery…with perez’s drop in velocity, it would not completely surprise me if he was hurt…hope for his sake i’m wrong…i always like YP
Chris Perez was an overrated prospect with serious control issues and the Cardinals got equal value for him. Unless he was packaged to acquire Holliday, nobody was going to fork over a core player for him.
And the Cardinals think so highly of him that he’s pitched while the team was ahead twice this month. Both times the Cardinals were leading 10-4.
If the team needs a RH reliever next season, put some names in a hat and pull one out. Bam. They’ve just compensated for Chris Perez.
I like the deal. The Cardinals have plenty of options to replace Perez now and in the future, including Jess Todd.
Perez’ ankle was bothersome in the off season and through spring. Surgery is a distinct possibility. He still has trouble finding his control. Yes he is a potential closer prospect, But I’m not at all confident he will reach his peak.
Kudos that Mo/Lunhow were finally were willing to trade from prospect strength to help the big club now. The deal makes sense.
So far, I like this trade.
1. Even with the loss to the Twins today, the Cards are only 1 game behind the Brewers(honestly I can’t believe this but it’s the truth) AND Carpenter looks healthy now. You have to take a chance when he can pitch. I think the odds are pretty high that next year he would go back to the DL and miss significant time. The team obviously needed some reinforcements; while DeRosa isn’t a superstar, he is a good fit on the team with his versatility.
2. One reliever’s contributiuon is not that much; good relievers like Hideki Okajima Heath Bell, and Will Ohman were worth aroud 1 WAR each last season. Mariano Rivera was worth 3.1 WAR last season, but I highly doubt Chris Perez would be that good some day. Yes, maybe Perez had the most upside in our RH reliever prospects, but I think the actual difference would be pretty small between Perez and other guys, say Todd.
3. The avg fastball velocity of Perez dropped about 2 mphs in this season. His top end velocity also dropped significantly. Given his command struggle with the velocity drop, I’m afraid that there might a problem in his throwing arm.
There is an X factor: who is PTBNL. If it’s Todd or Samuel, I would be pissed; if it’s a grade C or lower prospect, I would like this trade more.
I’m undecided about it and mostly because I see it as a horizontal move that could go either way. It seems to me that our greatest opportunity to improve involves replacing Chris Duncan in LF. I’ve never been one of Duncan’s harsher critics, but it’s hard to imagine the team not improving, significantly, by replacing him with one of the better outfielders available.
There’s little doubt that DeRosa will improve our offensive production, but will it be as an infielder or an outfielder? The improvement will happen either way, but his numbers are not as impressive if he’s mostly an outfielder. If he’s mostly an infielder, which would be my guess, then that means we still have Duncan under-performing in the outfield.
We can only guess whether Ankiel, Ludwick or Duncan will ever start hitting again, but I don’t see how anyone could argue that the first two don’t deserve more time over Duncan, who is halfway through his second season of lackluster performance and has never actually been a steady player during his tenure in STL.