“How John Smoltz beat the Cardinals before 1996″
August 12, 1987: Traded by the Detroit Tigers to the Atlanta Braves for Doyle Alexander.
Doyle Alexander – 1987 NLCS
0-2
9 IP
14 Hits
10 ER
2 HR
4 K
Alexander lost Game 1 and didn’t make it out of the 2nd inning in the deciding Game 5, as the Twins would go on to the WS to defeat the Cardinals.
So, pitch good John. You are a cautionary tale of what ‘going all in’ can sometimes mean.
- Matt Carpenter went 3-for-5 with a double.
- Chris Swauger was 3-for-5 as well.
- Curt Smith dutched a double for an RBI.
- Richard Castillo pitched 6 strong, giving up 4 hits, 1 BB and 5 strikeouts.
- Jared Bradford gave up 2 hits, 2 runs (1 ER) in 1 inning.
- Chrysanthemum Linares struck out 2 in his inning.
- Blake King picked up the win with 2 innings of 1 hit, 1 strikeout ball.
Quad Cities 5, Burlington Coat Factory 4
- Richard Racobaldo was 1-for-5 with a double and RBI.
- Crank’s Jason Stidham went 2-for-4 with an RBI.
- Domnit Bolivar was 2-for-4 with a HR.
- Kevin Thomas gave up 3 ER on 3 BB, 6 hits and 2 strikeouts.
- Mark Diapoules took the win with 2 innings of 3 hits, 1 ER and 4 strikeouts.
- David Carpenter picked up his 11th save with a hit and 2 strikeouts.
- Mark Hamilton was 1-for-4 with a double.
- Brandon Yarbrough went nuts. 2-for-4 with 2 doubles and 2 RBI.
- Adam Ottavino apparently wants to finish the season in a flourish. 2-for-3 with 2 RBIs.
- Ottavino also fell 2 outs short of a CG. He gave up 1 ER until the 9th inning, giving up 2 more. Final line: 8.1 IP, 8 hits, 3 ER, 1 BB, 3 SO
- Josh Kinney actually pushed across those last 2 runners, giving up a 2 run double. He then finished it off with 2 strikeouts.
- Joe Mather went 1-for-4 in his rehab appearance.
- Andrew Brown went deep.
- Steven Hill (of the IMF) double his pleasure, doubled his fun with double doubles.
- Colt Sedbrook went 2-for-3.
- Scott Gorgen laid an egg. Only got 5 outs and gave up 6 ER on 7 hits. Was tagged with a HR, 2 BB and a strikeout.
- Casey Mulligan struck out 4 in 2.1 IP, giving up 2 BBs.
- Justin Fiske gave up 1 ER on 3 hits and a walk, striking out 3 in his 2 IP.
- Gary Daley continues to do well after his promotion, striking out 1, walking 1 and giving up 2 hits in 2 IP.
- Marco Gonzalez finished off the last inning, giving up another ER on 2 hits (one of which was a HR).
- Micheal Swinson (or is it Samsonite?) hit a double.
- Alan Ahmady drove in 2 in the 13th inning and took 2 BBs.
- Jon Edwards hit a double, going 2-for-4.
- Ivan Castro hit a double.
- Daniel Calhoun only gave up 3 hits and a walk in 5 innings, striking out 3.
- Tyler Leach pitched 3 innings, giving up 2 BBs and 2 Hits, striking out 3.
- Joshua Squatrito goes 2 perfect innings with 4 strikeouts.
- Johnny Bravo was given the win pitching 2.1 perfect innings, striking out 3.
- Santo Maertz got the last 2 outs, one with a strikeout.
Johnson City 4, Burlington…Coat…Factory…hey wait a minute! 2
- Ted Obregon went 2-for-5.
- Rainel Rosario went 2-for-4 with a double.
- Ross Smith hit a double and drove in 2.
- Zach Russell made 1 mistake in his 5 innings, a HR. The rest was a hit and 5 strikeouts.
- Chris Notti picked up the win with his 2.1 innings on 1 hit, 1 run (unearned) and a strikeout.
- Aaron Terry recorded the save, getting 5 outs on 1 BB and 3 strikeouts.
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that tiger has got the crazy eyes
A few more of these outings (has anybody explained the promotion yet? I heard Brian Walton wrote about it but it’s behind the Scout Wall) and I’ll be pulling the Just Kidding But Seriously Gary Daley bandwagon back up to the station.
Conjecture that they are trying to decide whether to protect him. Matt Scherer 2.0 — no one is going to claim Daley and if they did, it’s obvious the Cardinals haven’t figured how to tap his talent so they should just let him go.
Was so confused reading this at first. Started at the top and was wondering how Matt Carpenter and Blake King got to Memphis. Used to seeing highest level first. No complaints, just made my 6 AM brain have to work a bit harder.
On another note, I really wish that one of our SP prospects (e.g. Ottavino, Boggs) would finally find some consistency. We need another options (besides Garcia) for 4th and 5th SP next year. Someone, please, take the reins.
I had to read the Doyle Alexander thing twice before I figured out it was talking about the ’87 ALCS, rather than the NLCS.
Also worth noting that Alexander was 9-0 down the stretch for Detroit in ’87, with 3 CG shutouts and an ERA+ of 278. The Tigers were in a dogfight in a brutal AL East, with 3 teams finishing with 91 or more wins. The Yankees won 89 games and finished 9 games out of first.
He was a bad postseason pitcher for 4 different teams, but he also threw a ton of innings in the mid-’80s. 1987 was his fourth consecutive season of 200+ innings, at age 36, and he had two more for Detroit in ’88 and ’89.
I’m not really sure how cautionary a tale it is, since Alexander was exactly what Detroit needed at the moment they traded for him.
And they lost John Smoltz for the next 20 years.
John.Freaking.Smoltz.
3,000 Ks + 200 Wins > 9-0 and 3 CG in 1987
Ottavino has been very consistant in the last few months, more so than the other starters at Memphis. I think he’s turned the corner and is figuring it out.
So Garcia was activated and optioned. What is the rule about optioning where if a person is only on an option for less than so many days the option doesn’t count? I am wondering if he will actually burn an option year or not this year.
Agree with Andrew. Things are looking up for Otto after a disastrous first half of the season. Props to the organization for sticking with him so long as a starter. Perhaps Hawksworth’s late emergence this season encourages them to be more patient with high draft pick starters possessing arms like these two guys have.
I heard a rumor that Gary Daley was going to relieve John Smoltz in San Diego on Sunday. Is that possible?
Ahem.
“Pitch *well*, John.”
[grumbles about young people]
Nice to see Matt Carpenter start to hit again. He’s been moved up pretty quickly, even considering his age. It’ll be interesting to see if he can fully adjust before the season ends and where he might wind up next year. Same with Daniel Calhoun–erik nailed that one.
Which Cardinal minor league teams have a chance to make the playoffs? It seems to me that they should move some players around to strengthen those teams that have a chance for the playoffs. Am I thinking right?
Wasn’t Ottavino 0-8, or 9 like 9 starts ago? and now he’s 7-10. That’s not a a bad little streak
When Smoltz was traded, he was 4-10 with a 5.68 ERA in AA, and he was originally a 22nd round draft pick in the first place. So, are you saying we should never trade our minor leaguers out of a fear that one day they will turn into John Smoltz?
People and their absolutism.
‘can sometimes’ is what I said.
only a sith deals in absolutes.
I think the key for Ottavino is keeping his walk rate down. Even though he is going through a stretch right now that makes you wonder if he is starting to turn that corner….his walk rate is still fairly high. But I must say it is a nice surprise to see someone that many, including myself, were writing off step up to say hey….don’t forget about me. Keep it up. Maybe a look for long relief role for next year in ST? Maybe just let him continue his success in the Memphis rotation?
I don’t get what all the fuss is about with this cautionary tale stuff. It’s not the norm for even elite prospects to turn into once in a generation Hall of Famers.
It’s like saying “Sure, you can take your un-registered gun out on the town with you, but you might shoot yourself in the leg and get 2 years in prison.” I mean, we get it, but that could never happe………….oh right, wow, this is awkward, nevermind.
True. But it is painful when it happens. The Red Sox traded newly drafted prospect Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen, who helped them get to the ALCS that year only to never pitch for them again. There is also the Nathan+Liriano deal, although Liriano’s star has fallen and Nathan had already been in the majors. Bartolo Colon for Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips.
Freddy Garcia was an average prospect in AA/AAA in 1998 who hadn’t been signed internationally. Same with Carlos Guillen. The Astros packaged both of them up and threw in John Halama for 3 months of Randy Johnson.
The point is, it isn’t the norm for a prospect to become a HOF’er after being traded, just like it isn’t the norm for ANY prospect to become a HOF’er. But when you trade young prospects/players for pitchers in their 30′s just to try to push for the postseason, there is an inerrant risk.
Ottavino is ready. He moved a couple of inches over on the pitching rubber about 5 games ago and has been excellent since. He is throwing slower than he was early in the season, except when he has to. He hit 96 (on our notoriously slow gun) in the 8th inning last night while he sat a couple of mph slower the rest of the game.
His walks are way down. His HR numbers are very good for the season as are his strikeouts. His stuff is excellent – both fastball and slider + pitches and a split change that is developing into a killer pitch. He also throws a slow looping breaking ball – curve I guess – every once in a while and can start a hitter off with it for a strike. I think he threw 65 % strikes last night and was ahead of 75% of the batters after 3 pitches.
His ceiling is very high. It may be time to give him a taste of the life in the Bigs – and then see what he has in spring training. I for one – having seen him throw 5 games this year – am a believer.
Ready for what?
Might Ottavino be given the Adam Wainwright treatment in a year—-a year out of the bullpen?
Nice article about Miller. Props to DG for find it in his 10@10
http://www.reporternews.com/news/2009/aug/19/no-headline—shelby_miller/
>>>But when you trade young prospects/players for pitchers in their 30’s just to try to push for the postseason, there is an inerrant risk.
There is inherent risk (though, inerrant works, too) to any trade. With a prospect-for-veteran deal, there’s also the risk that a team just gave up a proven veteran MLB player for a guy who turns out be nothing better than a AAAA player or worse. It goes both ways, and worrying about the consequences of those types of trades really does no good; the keys are (a) why the trade was made in the first place and if the return did what it was supposed to do and (b) whether the team trading the prospect has the system depth and talent to overcome any disappoint over the prospect possibly achieving far more than expected.
It’s also good to remember that we will never know if John Smoltz would have been able to have the kind of career he had if he had stayed in the AL and the Tigers organization, who were one of the stronger teams of the late 1980s. In Atlanta, Smoltz made his debut at age 21 the following season on the woebegone Braves, who won only 54 games and finished dead last in the NL West by 39.5 games. Because the Braves had nothing to lose, they kept playing their young guys the next two seasons and finishing deadlast until they matured enough to take them to first and the Series. By being traded to the Braves, Smoltz got a crash course in MLB pitching at a young age and was kept in whether he struggled or not. The Tigers probably could not have afforded to give him that kind of developmental opportunity given that their priority was to win.
The Ottavino troops are out in force after the near CG.
I think I heard cardsfan1 blow a bugle in the distance. :o)
It is interesting looking at Ott’s monthly splits. Months being a very arbitrary split line, i know. (small sample size alert).
In July his FIP was 5.93 with a .247 BABIP only 10% LD and 40% FB. An astonishing 15% of those FBs went out of the park. Everything points to a bad month, except the BABIP. But, he decreased the walks to 4.5/9 as well.
August has been much better so far with a 3.62 FIP with .229 BABIP. GB% and IFF% are both above his season levels. and FB% are now back to normal. His walks have dropped even lower to 3.5/9.
If he can keep the walks down for good, he will be improved, but the jury is still out whether he can keep it up.
What I see out of Otta and hear while watching Memphis games is that his mechanics are really cleaned up and simplified, why are reproducable. Good repeatable mechanics really helps with being able to locate the ball in the strike zone. I’ve watched his last 4 or so starts on milb.tv and he is good. He’s the best SP we have in Memphis right now.
Kelley, I think the top four teams are still alive for the playoffs. Springfield is in. Memphis is currently in first and I think Palm Beach and QC are alive for wild card spots.
Both Matt Carpenter and Jermaine Curtis do not seem to much power for 3rd base. Do they project as major league third basemen?
Brett Wallace number one on the BA Prospect Hot Sheet.
This season has made me feel a lot more comfortable projecting Ottavino to be at least a good late inning reliever in the majors. His control is shaky but he has plus stuff and is getting decent results.
Ottavino has had a somewhat similar career(and has somewhat similar stuff) as this guy so far:
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/N/joe-nathan.shtml
And they’re both 6’4″ and grew up in New York ;)
Here’s hoping Adam becomes half the major leaguer that Joe Nathan has been.
Is anyone else surprised that Miller is starting at QC this year? I guess it will be three appearances for them then head down to Arizona or Florida.
In my opinion, the only way to really learn and adjust is on the MLB field, as in the case of Smoltz.
I do beleive that Ottavino will far surpass anyone’s expectations if given the chance in MLB. He might be better served being on a team that is willing to let him do that. That’s why some of these guys really hope secretly that their name is mentioned in trades, you all might not believe that, but it’s true.
Sometimes it takes a few more years to get it together than others, with his high velo and injuries issues, I am not surprised at the control issues he’s had.
Trey Hearne back to Springfield. They have not announced a move, but I heard Gorgen is going on the DL. He looked worst than his stats last night.
I hope they keep Ottavino as a starter we already have a TON of relief prospects and he is able to hold his velocity throughout a game. His control issues are much better now and its an indication of his mechanics which are cleaner.
Plus, I heard he was tipping his pitches.
I’m not at all convinced that Ottavino has enough control to last 6-7 innings in a major league game. I’ll have to see what he can do against the big leaguers before I buy into him as a starter.
Mitch Boggs has a career 3.3 BB/9 in the minor leagues and it looks like control is the one thing that could keep him out of the Cardinals rotation long term. So good BB/9 numbers can be very deceiving.
To say Ottavino’s control issues are much better isn’t saying much. He’s walked 29 batters in 64.1 innings in his last 10 starts. That’s improvement from the first few months of the season but that is still rough. Guys with those BB numbers don’t usually have great careers as starters in the majors.
I’d like to see Ottavino stay in the rotation for another year or two but I think he’ll ultimately wind up as a dominant 1-2 inning reliever.