Alternatives to Kyle Lohse
Posted on May 13th, 2010 by azruavatar in Adam Ottavino, analysis, P.J. WaltersI have no real reason to think that Kyle Lohse is hurt. The fact that Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan let him pitch deep into a failing outing makes me think that there’s nothing physically wrong with him. He did seem remarkably detached from what he was doing as the game progressed but that’s a very subjective assessment on my part and one that, admittedly, may not be fair.
That said, we’ve seen players hit the DL with what many outside the clubhouse perceive to be phantom illnesses. Whether that’s to let them rest or get some mental things worked out, it’s tacitly accepted among MLB. So if that were the case, who would be the option to come up from Memphis? This also assumes that the Cardinals wouldn’t want to simply give Kyle McClellan, Mitchell Boggs or Blake Hawksworth a spot start but they seem content with those three in the pen. On to the stats!
| Pitcher | IP | H | HR | HBP | BB | K | FIP | GB% |
| Evan MacLane | 45.2 | 57 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 27 | 3.04 | 48 |
| Brandon Dickson | 38.1 | 36 | 4 | 5 | 14 | 27 | 4.64 | 58 |
| Lance Lynn | 32.2 | 25 | 0 | 1 | 18 | 25 | 3.41 | 52 |
| Adam Ottavino | 23.2 | 27 | 4 | 2 | 7 | 23 | 4.62 | 53 |
| PJ Walters | 11.2 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 15 | 2.21 | 52 |
| Rich Hill | 28 | 24 | 3 | 3 | 17 | 26 | 4.87 | 38 |
Shall we start with the obvious? Rich Hill wasn’t getting it done in the starting rotation and was pushed to the pen with the return of PJ Walters.
Speaking of Walters, he’s been sharp since his return to Memphis. With him on the 40-man roster, he’s certainly a candidate to be considered. From a ‘stuff’ standpoint, I worry about PJ being able to keep pace with major league hitters. I’d be inclined to look elsewhere but this would be a judgment call from the Cardinals front office.
Evan MacLane has been a tremendous workhorse for Memphis. Like Walters, I think his performance would suffer greatly with the step up to the majors.
Brandon Dickson has been very good to start the year. FIP is likely to under represent his true talent as a pitcher assuming the high GB% is not a fluke but skill. When I’ve seen Dickson in person, he was underwhelming but this is exactly the type of pitcher profile that seems to excel under Duncan. The overall line though looks like a pitcher who doesn’t quite have everything worked out at AAA. If you translate the line (MLE), it turns ugly quickly (5.29 FIP). Dickson is someone to watch for 2011 but he’s very unlikely to impact the team this year.
And then there were two. Lance Lynn’s* good looking FIP is a product of his HR rate (or lack thereof). The walk rate is not something you’d want to see promoted to the majors where balls are likely to leave the park when he’s forced to groove pitches or continue to walk batters. Lynn may be an option in the second half of the year but he hasn’t been that sharp to date.
Which leaves me with Ottavino. He’s long on stuff and thin on dominating minor league performances. He’s off to a very good start this year that’s obscured by some pitches that left the yard. His command is as good as it’s ever been, he’s generating groundballs and continues to strike out hitters. He’s already on the 40-man roster so you aren’t burning an option year. It’s also a good scenario to get Ottavino a look at the majors. 2-3 starts, working with Dave Duncan and Marty Mason, an improved defense behind him. All these things would give the Cardinals a chance to look at whether he’s a viable candidate for the future in the starting rotation.
I’d unquestionably pick Ottavino right now to replace Lohse, if I had to. Based on their past comments of Walters, the front office still believes he could be a major league starter and in all probability he’s ahead of Ottavino on the depth chart. The reality is that if you look at Ottavino’s MLE right now (arguably when he’s pitching at his best of the last few years) and compare it to Lohse (arguably when he’s pitching at his worst), Ottavino still comes out behind: 5.65 MLE FIP versus a 4.77 xFIP for Lohse**. Unless there’ something physically wrong with Lohse, the Cardinals are unlikely to make any change in the near term.
*This doesn’t include Lynn’s 5/12 start.
**Small sample size caveats apply. I’m using these stats to try and penalize Lohse and give Ottavino the benefit. The stats aren’t predictive in this sample.

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I agree with the assessment of Walters. He is the safe pick and has a longer track record. However as far as stuff and potential is concerned Ottavino and Lynn are ahead of Walters. I believe both Ottavino and Lynn are future starters in the STL rotation based off all the intangibles. Where as I believe Walters would be more ept to start in the pen.
Why the urgent need to replace a pitcher with a FIP under 4 and a high BABIP. Carp’s FIP will be higher than Lohse’s after today. Is FIP only good when it tells us what we want it to?
I actually agree with cairocardinal…loshe’s problem right now is that he cannot get himself out of jams…at all…unfortunately, last night, he was in a jam because of bad defense…i actually think he is doing exactly what we should expect from a 4/5 starter, which is what he is…now, we are paying him like a 2/3, but thats not his fault…we should be expecting results based on who he is, not on how much he is getting paid
having said that, i think one of our minor league pitchers could be putting up similar stats to loshe…that no trade clause on his contract is the worst decision in the history of time(not that anyone would take him unless we ate a ton of the salary)
and carp’s FIP is high because he gave up like 6 homers in in first two starts…thats going to kill a FIP
@VolsnCards5:
I think everytime I read someone commenting on Lohse’s NTC, I find myself running to Cot’s to check the validity of the statement. No matter how many times I look it up, I guess I just keep forcing myself to forget it actually exists.
Lohse’s problem is just a general lack of mental toughness. I’ve seen it many times this year hes cruising then he lets someone on base, he starts nibbling gets down 2-0 or 3-1 then hangs a pitch. It’s happened in every game hes pitched but the one good one. After Ryans questionable error in the 5 run inning he just packed it in, pitched scared and didn’t show any spine at all. He reminds me of Jose DeLeon the year when he won the ERA title, low ERA but could never get himself out of a situation after an error was made or he had some bad luck.
Lohse is and always has been a mediocre pitcher. Unfortunately he is now pitching like a less than mediocre pitcher. I still think that he has a much better chance at becoming a decent fifth starter than any of the other candidates do at least for this year. He’s also getting paid better than a lot of #2 starters so I think he’d have to bad mouth one of Duncan’s kids or something to actually get taken out of the rotation. If we absolutely had to bring one up I’d agree on Ottavino. At least he’s got “stuff” and might be physically able to meet the challenge. Lynn’s not ready and the others are fodder.
right now i’d leave him alone for two more starts, then if he still can’t get anyone out DL him & call up PJ, Lynn or Ottavino. i’m more concerned with the O right now than i am the pitching. the hitters look horrible right now & aren’t scoring any runs, minus the 11 on sunday. they just got swept by the lowly stros & that’s totally unacceptable to be shut down by their suckass pitchers.
@cariocacardinal: His high BABIP is somewhat offset by his low HR/FB. That being said he’s only the number 5 and I’d be inclined to let him pitch his way out of whatever funk he may be in, within reason of course
lohse for klohser?
probably not, but my guess is that unless he goes to the dl, he would swap places with kmac for a while
i don’t see a call-up, unless klohse is hurt
if so, i’d bet on walters coming up, but to the pen
again, with kmac to the rotation
@cariocacardinal: Lohse’s HR/FB is 3.8%, which is too low and unsustainable. His career HR/FB is 10%, right around the ML average. His xFIP is 5.04, according to Fangraphs, 5th worst among qualified NL starters. That’s bad enough.
Kelvin Jimenez, playing as a starter in Korea, pitched 6 scoreless innings with 8 strikeouts in his last start. Currently his ERA is 4.53; his FIP is 3.92. It is said that the overall level of Korean baseball league is somewhat similar to AAA. Bring him back and give him a shot to replace Lohse!
Just kidding, of course. However, Jimenez did look impressive in his recent start and Lohse is painful to watch now.
@cariocacardinal:
His FIP overvalues HRs. Look at his xFIP. He’s only better than a LOOGY and 2 position players who pitched.
xFIP is an estimation of future ERA — it may or may not prove to be accurate. Lohse’s FIP is an indication of how he is pitching currently. Sure Lohse’s HR totals this year are low but if we want to simply look at a player’s career norms why only look at HR’s? Just use his career averages across the board. People love to talk about FIP until it doesn’t serve their argument. Then they find another stat (xFIP in this case) that fits their argument.
FIP also is an estimation of future ERA. Both stats are used to measure current and expected performance–that’s the whole point. xFIP is essentially FIP with the home run totals adjusted; it’s an attempt to make FIP more accurate.
Here’s the Hardball Times explaunation: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/im-batty-for-baseball-stats/
Quote:
“We track something called FIP at the Hardball Times, because we believe it is better than ERA at discerning how well a pitcher is pitching, and will pitch in the future. Well, now we can improve FIP by “normalizing” the Home Run portion of the equation.”
From THT glossary of definitions.
FIP ” … FIP helps you understand how well a pitcher pitched…” note the past tense. There is nothing in the definition about predicting the future.
xFIP “….Theoretically, this should be a better predicter of a pitcher’s future ERA.” there is a reason for the “x” – it is used for “expected” a term implying events not yet happened.