Comments on: The Three Way Deal

By: JC

JC — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:52:43 +0000

My point is you can’t bank on Garcia in the postseason and down the stretch as with all 1st year starters they aren’t accustom to pitching the amount of innings that is required for a full season. Westbrook gives you insurance/options/depth.

By: Wade

Wade — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:48:34 +0000

I don’t think you should count on Westbrook being a significant part of the rotation in the postseason. A #4 starter should *hopefully* just make two starts in the postseason. Unless TLR doesn’t want Garcia to turn into Ankiel and doesn’t let him part of the rotation. But then we’d have Lohse and Westbrook as part of the rotation and be out in the first round.

By: easy

easy — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:06:56 +0000

The more I think about this deal the more I think it may have been done for more than one purpose. The obvious purpose was to get another starter but I wonder if it also wasn’t done to shake the team up. All year long the position players have been underperforming, not just at the plate but in the field and on the base paths. The PD folks, front office folks and even TLR have thrown around the “pressure” and “chemistry” terms in an attempt to account for the poor performance.
Matt Holliday was traded for and signed for a mint, not just to add his own offense, but to somehow provide more “protection” for Albert than he was already getting, primarily from Ludwick. That’s a load of pressure to lay on both Albert and Holliday if the expectation was that the best hitter in baseball would somehow actually produce more with Holliday behind him. It also hasn’t worked so far as Albert has been more mortal since Matt came over.
If those two were having issues with pressure and chemistry that could easily spread to the rest of the lineup trying to make up for it. There also may have been a camp of players (I would have been in it) that felt that Ludwick could do a better job of hitting behind Albert. This, in turn, could have created more issues with “chemistry” among the players. This could happen without any real fault on the part of Ludwick or anybody else but Jay’s emergence and the inability to obtain offensive help may have created a situation where trading Ryan was seen as the only way to make a change that might shake the hitters out of their doldrums. If so the first returns, albeit against the Pirates, are encouraging. Hopefully Westbrook makes us happy tonight.

By: JC

JC — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:23:09 +0000

The difference in Westbrook and Garcia’s recovery from TJ is one was a rookie that has never went more than 155 IP and he did that once (4 years ago). Since he has not went over 116 IP. Westbrook has been over 200 IP 3 times at the MLB level. That is a huge different IMO. He can be an innings eater and has shown that in the past. Since he is coming off TJ it is unfair to rate his innings the first 2 months of the season as he was still ramping back up. You look at the last few months and he has gone 6+ every start except 3.

As far as taking from the big league team when you didn’t have to there is legs to that. They could have given a prospect or 2 and got the deal done IMO. But the fact remains is they feel like this year they will get similiar production from the combo of Jay/Craig and sometimes Winn as they would have from Luddy. Then next year its a battle for the starting job between the 2 at $7.5+M less than Luddy would have been. This frees up money for the Pujols contract situation as well as other needs that we have on the club.

As far as if we dealt Luddy why not go after others…well Sanchez was not made available by all media sources I read and the Rays were not dealing anyone from the MLB rotation. I am sure Mo called every team more than once on different ideas and players. GM’s near the trade deadline live on the phone. I am sure he exhausted his options.

Once again – The Cards are banking on the fact that Jay/Craig gets the job done this year…that is the key to this deal. So we will evaluate this deal at the end of the year and determine whether it worked out or not.

By: Indiana Cardinal

Indiana Cardinal — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:13:31 +0000

The other positive about Westbrook is that he does not lock them into another starting pitcher for next year, which would block either a free agent pick up or someone surfacing next spring like Garcia, or even McClellan again. I presume they would start next season with Carp, Waino, Garcia and Lohse for four slots (they can’t trade and won’t eat Lohse’s remaining contract until it becomes obvious that he can’t start any longer). Westbrook gives them the flexibility for next season. Hopefully he pitches well enough to sign an extension. However the thing to avoid like the plague is an extension of multiple years like they did with Lohse. A one year deal for Westbrook or another Brad Penny type makes sense unless they are sure that someone from the farm or McClellan or Hawksworth can step in (and McClellan be replaced in the pen).

By: JC

JC — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:12:22 +0000

Shoulda Coulda Woulda. The fact remains is we have Holliday for a number of years and that should not go into the equation for this trade. Whether you like it or not Holliday is here and we paid him a nice chunk of change. I disagree with you that its a panic move. I feel like it was a business decision that they are banking on Jay/Craig/Winn to produce at or near what Luddy did. But everyone has opinions and thats fine.

By: Indiana Cardinal

Indiana Cardinal — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:05:42 +0000

The problem with any “why not go after” suggestions is that none of us have any idea if the other team would even have considered such a trade. For example, the Giants had been rumored to be pursuing Adam Dunn, but apparently were not willing to give up Sanchez or Bumgarner. Tampa also was rumored to be in on Dunn but were not willing to even give up their prospects, let alone pitchers they need for the stretch run. If the Cards did not take the offer for Ludwick now, it is possible that, because of the need to hold money to see what was necessary for Albert, they might have found it necessary in the off season to non tender him or take a fringe prospect like Greenwood, without the benefit of patching the rotation for the remainder of the year with Westbrook.

By: sportsman

sportsman — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 04:26:07 +0000

i understand, but jay/craig is what we should have done instead of holliday
kept luddy, and spent the money on lee or halliday
next year lud would have have likely consumed less money than penny+lud this year (~14M) and then we have 15-20 M to cover an extension for halliday and pay part of albert’s increase
many ways to skin the budget next year w/o this panic move

By: Andrew

Andrew — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 04:05:32 +0000

I believe Westbrook has pitched to the 7th or deeper in 1/3 of his games this year. He is coming off Tommy John also. I believe him and Garcia healed up at about the same time. So I wouldn’t really count on him as an innings eater. The trade was about freeing up money for during the post season. That is at the expense of this years team. The reason I’m saying it was a bad trade even before any performance is because we could have got the same guy without losing any MLB production at all. So losing from from the Big League team when we didn’t have to automatically makes this a worse trade than it had to be. If Ludwick was always on the table why not go after Sanchez from the Giants or one of the young guys from Tampa. Shields or Davis.

By: JC

JC — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 03:12:47 +0000

I will hold judgment on this deal until later in the year at least. I can see the logic on this trade even if most of you will disagree. I have said from the beginning of the deadline talks that Westbrook makes the most sense of any pitcher that will most likely be on the market. He can be an innings eater and is our typical ground ball pitcher. He has the making of a legit #3/#4 type pitcher. He will give up more hits than you would like but counters that with plenty of DP opportunities. He isn’t going to anymore All-Star games nor will his stuff blow you away. But what he has done over his career is keep you in games, occasionally throw a gem and go deep into games to help save your bully. I like Westbrook and realistically it is exactly what we needed. Sure an Oswalt or Haren would have been nice but our system would have taken another KO.

To the questionable piece of this deal…what we gave up. Ludwick is a guy that I am a big fan of…solid contributions, solid D and arm in RF, good clubhouse guy, etc. He is a solid complement to Pujols and Holliday. Could we have given up a mid-tier prospect and get the deal done? Sure. What prospect were the Indians asking for? Not sure but maybe a Lynn type (#3 starter type future). I think this deal had as much to do with next year as anything. We save $8+M next year with Luddy’s last year of arbitration and we obviously felt good enough with the combo of Jay/Craig for the rest of the year and next year. This is obviously a way to free up money to create more flexibility for next year and I am sure the need for Pujols contract extension talks in the offseason.

One thing to keep in mind is as great as Garcia has been he has never pitched a full MLB season and we should expect him to fade a bit down the stretch. This is common for most youngsters in their first year in the league. If he doesn’t fade thats just a big bonus. But the Cards will do what they can to help preserve him down the stretch IMO. Getting a solid contributor like Westbrook will give us insurance for Garcia fading. Notice how I am not banking on Lohse or Penny. Either of them coming back and giving us solid starts is just a major bonus but not expected.

So with all that said I have mixed feelings to the point that I will hold out judgment until the end of the year. This trade will look good if most of these scenarios pan out:
1) Jay/Craig/Winn produce (mostly Jay as I see him getting most of the starts) to an adequate level
2) Luddy doesn’t absolutely tear it up for the Pads
3) Westbrook pitch to his capabilities and give us 6-8 innings every start and keep us in games
4) Pujols gets signed to an extension in the offseason
5) We make the playoffs and Westbrook is a significant part of our postseason rotation.