The Cardinals made more yet moves today to adjust their 40-man roster before the Rule 5 draft.
Added: Tony Cruz, Blake King
Removed: Nick Stavinoha, Adam Ottavino, Steve Hill and Daryl Jones. All four are “outrighted” to Memphis and available for the Rule 5 draft.
Discuss.
Entries (RSS)
Only surprise for me is Hill. I personally think he would make a nice MLB bench bat. Certainly he can hit and he can play passable OF and C. RH power bench bat and emergency catcher. Then again maybe they envision that role for Cruz since he can play 3b as well.
Ottavino probably will not be picked b/c of the shoulder. I could see a bad team taking a flyer on Jones since he has tools. Maybe a shot at sticking on a ML roster would light a fire in him. Clearly the organization has decided that Chambers is the safer bet.
forgive me for not actually putting in effort into looking this up, but does this mean that all of our AFLers are now on the 40 man (minus Swaggerty)?
I don’t think Brian Broderick is, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me as he had a great year last year and doesn’t look that far away from getting some ML innings… but I’m not a GM
Given his poor strikeout rate(4.9 K/9 in AA), I don’t think Broderick could stick on 25-man roster for the entire season.
Degado is not protected either.
Is this going to mean no Stav next season? I’m extremely happy Cruz is now protected and I’m glad Jones isn’t wasting space on the 40 man roster.
Not too surprised by any of this. I am also happy to see Cruz added.
can’t see anyone taking a flyer on Jones. he’s struggled for 2 years in AA. He has some power, some speed, he’s hardly Barry Bond’s-esque. Hill, maybe an AL team, but still you would have to give him ab’s, . Stav has more play, he has proved he can play the outfield and 1st marginally well and has been a fair pinch hitter. I can see him going possibly, but no one else. I think the process of moving people up and down, while helpful for the big league team at times, has a flip side. the decision on Hill to bring him up was a kind of emergency thing for a day, and they may lose control of him for it. interested in hearing who people think a candidate for the shortsop upgrade might be. I am thinking Stephen Drew, but 2 LH middle infielders may not work in the order. can’t see the skip thing again, I wouldmuch rather try Greene there, or Descalso. skip isn’t a bad guy, he just is who he is, and a regular 2nd baseman he isn’t , IMHO.
exactly
after a while, gotta separate good guy from good player
he took a shot at being a 2nd baseman, and it just didn’t take hold
unfortunately, not a kelly johnson transition
Everything makes sense except, perhaps, Ottavino. I say perhaps because the organization might know something about his shoulder that we do not. I expect Ottavino to be selected in Rule V. Some team will kick the tires. I think Ottavino can justify a 25 man roster spot as a reliever. It’s where he belongs with his history of shoulder problems. The issue is what sort of velo is he going to have when he shows up at spring training? If he’s able to throw in the mid-90s, then he’ll stick. If not, his ability to throw strikes and get people out working around 90 is questionable. We probably get him back in that case. Glad to see JMo heard us on DJ.
I think you’re right that it means we don’t know something about Ott’s shoulder. If there wasn’t something wrong I can’t see them giving up on him without at least a good try as a reliever.
also thought he had a good deal of potential as a short man in the pen
Why would anyone pick any of these guys up in the Rule 5 draft? They just had a fee shot at them through the waiver process where by claiming them they only have to put them on the 40 man roster but there is no requirement they keep them on the 25 man roster (as they all have options remaining). After passing on them under those conditions why would they select them under more restrictive (25 man roster rqmt) conditions?
Strauss makes a big deal out of the Rule 5 exposure in his PD article. When I questioned him about it he said a team may want to keep roster flexibility for trades and FA’s prior to the rule 5 draft. As I told him, that makes no sense. A team could have picked up one of these guys and if they signed a FA and needed roster space, dropped them tomorrow. They might even get lucky in that case where the guy clears waivers whence they have then acquired the player for their organization without even a 40 man roster spot being required.
If I was a GM and I selected one of these players in the Rule 5 draft I’d be embarrassed I didnt take him first on the waiver claim. Particularly if after Spring training the player had performed well but I had to give him back due to a roster crunch.
Once again cariocacardinal is a voice of reason
and doubles my sad on losing joey so quickly
Are we sure we are clear on the rules? I thought you could take folks off of the 40 man roster without exposing them to other teams “one” time. Not sure what the technical name was, but I thought that was the case. I would rather keep DJ on the 40 man myself, but I am a “down with the ship” kind of guy…
have to pass through waivers every time. The difference between the first time and the second time is that the second time a player is removed (which technically doesnt happen until he clears waivers) is that he can declare himself a free agent.
Gotcha – Thanks for the clarification. This really tells you what the other teams think of these guys (e.g. not worth a 40 man spot). I would have taken DJ Toolz… Of course I have been waiting for a Sean Burroughs comeback for awhile too…
I’ve actually thought of one scenario why a team my take one of our players in the rule 5 but they didnt take him through waivers. It would be if they thought that there might possibly be even a better player available to them in the rule 5 draft so they wanted the open roster spot but in the end it turned out there was no better player available. A stretch, but a possibility.
Sorry, this is wrong. Every player gets one free pass off the 40-man. That’s called “outrighting.” Once you’ve been outrighted and put back on the 40-man (like joe mather) then you go through waivers. None of the guys moved through today went through waivers. They were all outrighted.
A player on the 40 man roster has to clear waivers before he can be outrighted. here are some references.
http://www.brewcrewball.com/2009/1/4/703125/the-40-man-roster-how-does
http://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Help/Glossaries/GMBasics.html
http://indians.scout.com/2/569136.html
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bNB5vUaeSNgJ:www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-new-game/187455-25-man-active-40-man-roster.html+rules+for+removal+from+40+man+roster&cd=4&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&gl=br&client=firefox-a
Tom S., I believe that Carioca is correct. Please check Matthew Leach’s article at the Cards MLB site. He says the 4 assign all had to go through waivers. I do recall having read somewhere in the past, that there is some sort of “scratch our back and we will scratch your back” “gentlemen’s understanding” to the effect that teams let everyone pass through the first time waivers are sought, but not the second time. I wish I could recall where I read that, but it does coincide with the fact that I have seen some pretty good prospects get through from other teams that I thought should be claimed. If that is accurate, I don’t know how such a “gentlemen’s understanding” impacts whether or not a team would then take someone in the Rule 5 draft, knowing that they would have to keep the player taken for the entire season on the 25 man roster.
Guys get claimed first time through waivers all the time. See Mather, Joe; Augenstein, Bryan, and a host of others (brian Barden is another name that comes to mind). In fact I would say most waiver claims (in order to outright) are first time claims because a guy has to be pretty bad to go the second time as the team knows they will lose him to free agency. Other teams also know this and often gamble they can pick the player up as a FA without having to give up a roster spot.
The only place I’ve heard there is a gentleman’s agreement is when a player has to clear waivers to be sent to the minors even though he has options left. This occurs when it has been more than 3 years since a player’s first major league appearance.
Tom, I think the term “outrighting” applies when a player is removed from the 25 man roster but is still on the 40 (i.e., Fernando Salas was outrighted to Memphis). A player can be outrighted without going through waivers if he has options left. But I don’t think a team can remove a player from the 40 man roster without that player going through waivers.
Not exactly.
A player who has options left and is sent to the minors is “optioned”. A player who is removed from the 40 man roster and sent to the minors is “outrighted” (must clear waivers first). This is why you will see both terms in the transactions listings.
A player who has used his 3 options (in rare cases 4) can still be optioned but he too must pass through waivers. The 3 options are the options that can be used without waivers being required.
Conversely, a player who is on the 40 man roster who is put on the 25 man roster is “recalled” while a player who is not already on the 40 man roster will have his contract “purchased” (no waivers required).
The more I read about it Carioc, the more it seems that the term outright just means assigned to a minor league club roster from the 25 man roster, whether or not optioned or had to clear waiver or even whether the player is still on the 40 man roster. Outrighted and optioned don’t appear to be mutually exclusive terms. The term “outrightrighed” does not seem to appear in the MLB rules so I think it is something those in baseball may assign their own definitions to thus causing confusion. If anybody has a link to an official definition, I’d like to read it.
They are different but one proceeds the other. To be outrighted, you must clear waivers first.
From Cot’s baseball contracts
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2003/01/transactions-glossary.html
Irrevocable Outright Waivers
A club that wishes to remove a player from its 40-man roster but keep him in its minor-league system must first place him on outright or special waivers. Outright waivers are not revocable, so a player claimed on outright waivers may not be pulled back by his original club. A club may not request outright waivers on a player with a complete no-trade clause or on a player ten-and-five rights.
From Baseball Analyst
Outright or special waivers. The name changes depending on the time of year, but the effect is the same. These are the waivers you use to kick a player off of your 40-man roster. They’re also the waivers to use when you wish to send a player who is out of options to the minors (thereby also removing him from your 40-man). These waivers are irrevocable, meaning that if you place a player on outright waivers and he is claimed, you can not pull the player back off waivers.
From Son of Sam Horn
http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/MLB_Rules_and_Procedures
. After a player has used up all his options, he must be kept on the 25-man roster or passed through waivers.
http://desh.livejournal.com/363401.html
If a team needs to get rid of a healthy player, they can always trade him (if he’s cleared waivers or if it’s before August 1) or release him. They can also outright him to the minors, but they can only do this if he’s cleared waivers, and they need his permission to do this if he’s been on a 25-man roster for enough years or if he’s ever been outrighted before.
I’m sure I can find more if someone wants.
I only add one more because it is from an “official” source.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BBq9J0WB8GkJ:wiki.soxprospects.com/Major%2BLeague%2BRules+ML+rule+11&cd=1&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&gl=br&client=firefox-a
This is actually a summary of the Major League Rules that governs actions between clubs. apparently it is not on line but on file in Cooperstown and this guy has done a summary. Click on Rule 10.
Rule 10 – MLB Waivers
Definitions
A waiver is a permission granted: (i) for the assignment of a player contract Assignment Waivers, or (ii) for the unconditional release of an MLB player (Unconditional Release Waivers).
And Derrick Goold agrees with Cario:
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/article_8251353c-f723-11df-87ae-00127992bc8b.html
It’s hilarious to me that the St. Louis Post-Dispatch needed to have one reporter clear up the confusion created by another.
No surprise who wrote the first article. :)
I like the moves except I question two things.
1. Is Blake King going to be a major league pitcher? Putting him on the 40 man roster seems strange to me – his control is questionable and it’s not like he was awesome in the AFL. That seems weird to me.
2. Ottavino’s stuff is damn good. You may be right about the shoulder but it’s hard to believe we are going to expose him after what he showed brief flashes of last season. It’s not like we have a killer AAA rotation, either
Both Ottavino and King have trouble throwing strikes, but the difference may be that King can actually throw a second pitch for a strikeout.
Ottavino is FB, FB, FB, FB, FB, FB, and that was and is pretty much it.
I’m guessing Mr. Luhnow learned his lesson about taking raw college arms with messy mechanics in the first round of the draft. Hopefully anyway.
Ottavino throws a nice slider IMHO and has shown a competent change. What he can’t throw is the 2 seam FB preferred by DD. Would you like to see better command of the slider? Yeah but at times it’s an absolute thing of beauty. I think he should throw it more. But if Ottavino’s shoulder injury robs him of several MPH from his 4 seam FB, then he is toast. It will be Anthony Reyes redux. Will another team pay $50k to take a peek at Ottavino in the spring? We’ll see.
i would
50k is literally nothing
pirates, royals, etc have better options?
King can be a major league pitcher if he find the strike zone but let me ask this question — when was the last time the Cards fixed a pitcher with serious control issues? Why should we expect King to be the first?
The only thing good about King’s control problems is unlike Samuel he seldom throws wild pitches and he seldom walks men with the bases loaded (which leads me to believe he can get the ballover the plate if he really needs to.) He also doesn’t throw HR’s. In other word he may not be that far off. However, I was expecting improvement in the AFL and it didnt come.
They fixed Ankiel… they just had to move him from pitcher to CF to fix him j/k
I think that Ottavino was a FB pitcher because that is what they wanted him to pitch. King has the velo, so they are going to work with him. If he doesn’t find the command he will be out. He’s young too.
Samuel is like a wild horse needing taming, too bad with injury will set him back some.
Why do they protect some pitchers and not others.
Important stuff for consideration
FB and command
If you hit mid 90′s or above command isn’t as important as yet for young pitcher.
CB, deception and spin.
Slider angle, deception and spin.
CU mechanics, action and command.
Good stuff with good angle, good plane and making it work.
Pitchability.
How you get your strikeouts, if you have hitters swinging at balls, and not strikes, then that means that it’s not going to work against better smarter ML hitters.
It’s not always how many games you have won, hold or saves.
Not sure how much learning goes on in Arizona, that will show up in the spring, with just a few innings here or there it’s really hard to know, even for the pitcher.
I meant Sam Freeman.
Why do the Cardinals only have 36 or 37 players on the major league roste?. I know other teams (San Diego) keep 39. Then
later the club administration bemoans the loss of a player they felt other teams would not take. What is the purpose of having four emply slots on your roster?
Allows for FA signings, picking up a player off waivers, or through the Rule 5 draft, or even 1 for 2 trades. In the Card’s case, they most likley expect to sign 3-4 FA’s still before the season. (LOOGY, backup catcher, backup IF, RH outfielder I would imagine.)
I believe they need to keep some slots open for additional players aquired in the offseason. left handed reliever, bench bat, ss, ect.
Ottavino has rehabbed his shoulder and is ready to go. He has a lot more than a fastball if you have really been following him. Let’s hope a team picks him so that he can show what he can do. There is no “hidden injury” to his shoulder.
This just in: Matt Pagnozzi signed a minor-league deal with the Rockies.