The Cardinals do not only look thin at the major league level at 3rd base, they look pretty thin in the minors as well minus a few exceptions. We are considering Freese and Allen Craig major leaguers at the position.
Matt Carpenter will play every day at Memphis at 3rd base to build on his breakout 2010. Carpenter is the emergency third baseman should something happen to Freese and the Cardinals decide they do not want Allen Craig or Nick Punto starting every day at third. Craig is much more palatable than Punto, but Carpenter is the “next man up” as far as 3rd base is considered.
The next step away from the majors has a bit of a empty space unless Zach Cox gets pushed to Springfield right away. That seems unlikely, so Niko Vasquez might be the next in the depth chart here. Vasquez finally began to hit again last season and finally gained his promotion to Quad Cities. He will soon be hard pressed to turn his project-ability and swing into numbers in the mid to high minors.
Jermaine Curtis is also kicking around Springfield at third, but his projection does not take him anywhere above a 4-A player.
Further away from the minors is top 2010 draftee Zack Cox, who we have see so little of in the professional leagues that the jury is still out on how he will translate to the pros. Scouts are mixed on Cox’s projection and whether he is a better fit on 2nd or 3rd, but his first full season in the minors should tell us two things. First, where the Cardinals place him should tell us a lot about where they think he stands on his pro progression and his numbers should tell us a lot about where he actually stands.
John Rodriquez part 2 is also in the low minors with bonus baby Roberto De La Cruz. At this point, De La Cruz has lost a lot of his luster and J-Rod 2 is waning.
After taking a second, third and forth look at the third baseman depth it is not as scary as I initially thought. However, if Zack Cox moves off of third base, the Cardinals will need a huge year from either De La Cruz or JRod 2 to keep the quality of this group high. What do you think? Do the Cardinals have enough here?
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I personally think so. When I did my personal Top 30 prospects I had 3 of the above mentioned players in it (Cox, Carpenter and Vasquez). I look at all other positions in my Top 30 and outside of RHP and C there is no other glaring strength from a depth perspective. So 3B is as deep as any other position. Would you prefer to have 4 or 5 deep…sure. If you have the right 2 or 3 prospects is that enough for now…sure. Carpenter and Cox are both 3B IMO and they are both everyday 3B type guys. I still believe in Vasquez but 2011 will be a critical year from a development perspective. I don’t see any annual all-stars in the group but solid contributors each year would be accurate. I would be much more concerned with our MI depth and LHP in the system.
I agree that 3b isn’t really to be worried about at this point that said. I think your off on De La Cruz. He hit 7 Hr’s in the GCL this year. I believe that led the league. Regardless he is still very young and we knew he was raw when we signed him. He will probably be starting 3b at JC this year and this year should be interesting to see if he continues to improve.
I agree that you can’t give up on a kid like De La Cruz…but he hasn’t shown anything that gets you that excited yet. When you are hyped liked he was there is a lot of pressure to perform. He is only 19 (just turned a few months ago) so he had a few years before you get too concerned that he is a bust. But he needs to show much better plate discipline or he will get eaten alive if they try to push him to leagues with more advanced pitching. Still a guy of interest but to say that he has lost his luster is not crazy by any means.
I expected him to tear up the pitching once he signed the big deal but maybe we signed him based on his physical tools and not his performance. Not sure his history but when we signed him may have been his first time playing organized ball. The fact that his power is starting to come around sets my mind at ease for his future. As I said before though this year at JC should be pretty interesting. He’s still learning for sure.
I’m working off deep memory, but I seem to recall the Cards touting RDLC as one of the most advanced July 1 hitters available. There was certainly competition — otherwise, it wouldn’t have taken $1 million+ to sign him.
The Cards must’ve expected a lot more from him when they started him in the GCL in 2009, rather than the Dominican Summer League.
I get the impression a lot of teams were disappointed with the guys they signed out of Latin America in 2008, because the process changed the next summer. It seemed like the whole thing changed dramatically, with teams taking a lot longer to evaluate players. I don’t know how much of that was to verify ages and test for PEDs and how much was to see the prospects in situations that weren’t stage-managed by their advisors. But they sure aren’t as quick to throw money at these kids as they used to be.
I didn’t think they said he was one of the more advanced just that his floor was higher than others because of his talent level. I hope I’m right about this at this point. He’s still young and hopefully develops into a good hitter. I believe we ahve been alot more cautious about everything since Wagner Mateo. I definately agree that that sly advisors can can really protect prospects from being exposed like they will be once they sign.
It didn’t help that Luhnow indicated he would most likely start his first year in the Appy league and then went on to struggle for 2 years in the GCL.
I think Cox will be at Springfield and Niko back at Palm Beach. Think we have good depth in the system with JRod and Cerreto at Quad Cities.
I don’t like the idea of Punto being the regular third baseman if somthin catastrohic happens with freese. Because if he moves to third, then they loose his good late inning defensive ability up the middle.
I think they are thin at 3rd because nobody is ML ready. Currently, its Punto, Craig and Greene as the back up 3rd baseman. I hope craig can show some ability there.
Descalso started 9 games at 3B in the MLB in 2010 and looked fine in the field. I wouldn’t have chosen to look at 3B as an organizational weakness if we view it from top to bottom. There is a short term need for depth behind the injury prone Freese. But we are very solid in the minor leagues with Carpenter and Cox. 3B is an issue for one year and then only a problem if Freese is completely unable to play (which I admit is a possibility). We can cover 3B adequately for a few weeks of DL time here and there. By 2012, Carpenter and Cox both move to the doorstep of being major league ready. Cox has to be considered as such because the organization burns his second option year in 2012. I hate that he was given an MLB contract.
For position players, I can’t think another position with the possible exception of 1B or C where we have this much organizational depth in the minor leagues top to bottom. Corner OF … we have a bunch a guys with speed who have shown flashes of hitting for average but no one with power and some of whom may be able to play CF kind of (Jay, Chambers, DJ, et alia). Craig has power but is inexperienced as an outfielder. Everyone knows the problems at SS. I’m fine with Descalso at 2B but behind him we have to look farther down the system for a true prospect.
Giving Cox a ML deal should not a big deal. If your going to give out a ML contract you need to make sure you are getting a very advanced player. Cox was the most advanced hitter in the draft last year and realistically could arrive for a taste in Sept 2012 if all goes well. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in the bigs full time in 2013.
ML contracts are no bid deal for college kids. You just don’ want to hand out too many of them.
Agreed…having too many guys on ML contracts can really handcuff you for sure.
I am not sure I am ready to consider Descalso a MLB ready thridbaseman.
I do think you are accurate in that its a short term problem. Bur for 2011, they seem to be a bit handcuffed there.
I also think this is skip’s last year, so Descalso has a big opportunity this year.
Agree it is an important year for Descalso with a potential opening @ 2B in 2012. Just hope he gets some MLB time and is not completely Punto’ed.
Phil Cerreto is probably this year’s version of Matt Carpenter…an unheralded older prospect who performs above expecations and moves quickly through the system. However, before his injury, Cerreto split time between 3B, 1B, and RF, so my feeling is that he won’t stick at third base.
We are definitely thin, but I think there is still a chance for Jermaine Curtis to provide some value as a utility player if he can be more consistent hitting. That being said, he seems to fit better at 2b than 3b, but any chance he has at the majors is likely as a utility guy playing both. As for the other 3b mentioned, I like what I have seen, but I am not ready to jump on the Matt Carpenter is any better than David Freese bandwagon just yet. Cox and De La Cruz both represent the best talent I think we have at 3b, and as was pointed out, Cox may be a better fit at 2b and De La Cruz hasn’t yet shown us anything stateside. This will be a big year for him, IMO, to prove what he is made of.
Another wild card could be Sam Tuivailala. Probably won’t stick at short and could develop some power.
Jermaine Curtis – I always forget about that guy. Is there a 3B in all of the minors with less power?
I’ve got my money on JROD II developing.
I agree about Cerreto.
I thought that JRod 2 was a first baseman. Geez those late season stats look even better if he plays a decent third. I agree with the commnters who think that 3b is actually one of our strong suits. There are a bunch of guys (Punto,Craig, Greene) who could be okay at the major league level if Freese blows an ankle and Carpenter waiting at Memphis. Throw in Descalso, Cox, DelaCruz (and JRod?) and I wish we were as deep at all the other positions. I also think Tuivalala is interesting but hope he sticks at short.
Jrod played mostly 1B in 2009 because he was coming off shoulder surgery to his throwing arm. in 2010 he played both 3B and 1B.
Thanks
Jrod had some nice stats this year, Saw some Muckdogs game highlights on Youtube and hes got a nice swing.
Hey guys, long time reader first time poster here. Don’t want to talk a lot about myself but big cards/cards prospect fan, was college teammates with some future redbirds and played against some others from little league all the way through college. Looking forward to joining the discussion this year on prospects. But back to 3B i think carpenter is good depth for the organization, I think he can be solid 280 with good OBP but I dont necessarily think he will supplant Freese if he is healthy.
Wow, at this point there are 19 comments on this thread and only one mention of Niko (besides that in Jeff’s entry). Here’s a kid who was on many fans top-ten (or top-five) list after his wonderful short-season performance in ’08 out of high school. He had a bad year in ’09 and he dropped off of almost everyone’s list. His performance last year at QC and Palm Beach was pretty good (a combined OPS around .800 – close to what he did at JC in ’08 – and he just turns 22 at the end of February) but he now seems to get little attention. I’m not saying he’ll turn into a major-league star, just very surprised that so many now disregard the possibility that he might become a solid major-leaguer. Also, as an aside, the entire Taveras situation this year (the sudden hype around him and his entry on many fans top-ten lists based on a fine performance at JC) sounds eerily similar to what happened with Niko two years ago. IMHO, too many people read much too much into a solid performance in the very-low minors.
Given that Niko seems a little short on the power dept for a 3B combined with doubts about his hitting overall (based on a horrid 2009) I can see why he is not a prime candidate for discussion. Sure he is in the mix but he has a lot to prove still to be a legitimate 3B candidate in my mind. He only hit ,251 last year, has never hit above .287, and has never had an ISO >.162 or an overall OPS >.800
I’m a fan of Niko’s but I don’t think hes had 2 consistantly good years in a row. Not only that he’s already probably blocked at Springfield and Memphis with 2 other better prospects. Niko never really had the toolset to be a Big League 3rd basemen I believe so when he was moved off short he kind of dropped some. The difference with Taveras at least for me isnt the results at JC. It has to do with the Luhnow mentioned that he probably has the highest ceiling out of any player in our system. Someone from the organization doesn’t just say that for nothing.
Third base is a strength and a weakness for this system. The strength is that it has a lot of potential for at least adequate MLB performance. If the MLB team was not under so much pressure to win this year, the situation would be great. The team could be happy with the likelihood that one of the kids will work out.
However, given the big club’s situation, the position is a weakness because of the uncertainty. The birds need, or at least desire, a player they can count on for production at a certain level. Even if healthy, Freese is not a given because he really struggled for about a month before ending his season. Further, there are concerns about everyone else. Noone seems to really project as a great 3B. Of course, just a league average 3B would probably be a good thing for this team after the last couple years. Obviously, here, MLB average 3B are good prospects, but not terribly exciting.
Personally, I have a bad feeling about it. It seems to me that the Cardinals’ prospects have done at least as well as expected when they get to the majors in recent years. Their performances seem to succeed at a higher percentage than other teams I notice. It seems like it has been a long time since one of prospects has really flopped (reyes?). In fact, it seems like our gusy exceed expectations (Ludwick, ankiel, skip, possibly Jay and Freese, Garcia, even Waino). Even with Reyes, he was not a total flop because injuries ruined him in Cleveland after some good performances there and some highlights here. I can’t remember the last time the birds had a ronny cedeno or felix pie, adam laroche, or the like. The birds’ relative success makes me nervous.
I think 3B is probably the strongest field position as far as depth in the system – Carpenter and Cox are top prospects in the system and are not too far from being ML-ready (1-2 years). Descalso and Craig could play there in a pinch. Lower-level possibilities with some upside are present – Niko, Jon Rodriguz, RDLC.
If 3B is pretty thin, I don’t how SS/2B and some others will be described — wasteland? abomination?