Andy Van Slyke’s Questionable Criticism of Colby Rasmus
Posted by azruavatar in UncategorizedLou Schuler linked to some interesting words from Andy Van Slyke in a recent Bernie’s Bytes post by Bernie Miklasz. I’m going to take issue with Van Slyke’s criticism because, in part, it seems to cloud history with phrasing and some inaccurate details. I’m certain this will be perceived as me being a Colby Rasmus apologist but something rings odd about this conversation.
When he originally excerpted it, Lou left out the first portion of the quote, self-praise:
“A 24-year-old Andy Van Slyke or a 24-year-old Jim Edmonds would have caught both of those balls,” Van Slyke said.
He’s referencing the plays Colby failed to make in the recent loss to the Giants including a 400′ flyball off reliever Ryan Franklin hit by Miguel Tejada. I agree that Colby should have caught that ball but would Van Slyke? Probably not since at 24, he wasn’t even a centerfielder. He was primarily a corner outfielder with the Cardinals appearing in no more than 27 games as a CF with the team. Did Van Slyke have the range to catch a ball like that? Probably. He had a successful career as a centerfielder in Pittsburgh but at 24 he didn’t break into the majors as a centerfielder.
I don’t ever remember him climbing a wall, going into a fence. He hates to leave his feet.
My memory is bad but thankfully a quick solicitation turns up this from mysterui where Colby makes a leaping catch. He runs into the fence nonetheless. That’s a bit of a throw away line but Van Slyke should be less trusting of his memory it seems.
Again some interesting words from Van Slyke:
Look it, I mean, you’re a center fielder. The fact is, you almost have to disrespect your body a little bit to elevate your game defensively in the outfield. You’ve almost got to face the fact that if you dive and you sacrifice your body a little bit, you’re going to make the plays that are going to get you on ESPN on the ‘Top Ten Plays’ or the highlight film.
I love highlight reels as much as the next person but why does Van Slyke seem focused on the acclaim rather than that it’s important to the team. Who cares if Colby makes the ESPN Top 10 Plays?
There’s no highlight films in Colby Rasmus’ game and until he’s willing to stretch himself a little bit more physically, I think we’re going to be very disappointed with him defensively.
Single season defensive metrics are tricky but there was consensus among John Dewan’s +/-, Total Zone and Ultimate Zone Rating that in 2009 Colby was a very good centerfielder. There was equal consensus that he was worse in 2010 and likely below average. So should we be disappointed by this? I don’t know what Van Slyke’s threshold is for Colby’s defense. Maybe he expects him to be a gold glover on a regular basis and thus is disappointed. But if he just expects him to be a little above average, then the quote seems strangely harsh for a player who had one very good year in CF and one mediocre/poor year in CF.
Here’s the money quote though:
my son (A.J.) played with him for three and a half years in the minor leagues and he said he never saw him run into the fence once in the minor leagues.
They both spent time in Johnson City during 2005 and in Quad Cities during 2006. After that, Colby skipped Palm Beach and jumped a full level ahead of AJ. So there’s some whitewashing of the truth going on in there regarding his Van Slyke’s son’s career. To add to that in 2006, the overlap between Colby (who went on to Palm Beach in the second half) and AJ (who started in the NY Penn League in the first half) at Quad Cities was likely limited. Van Slyke seems to imply that AJ tracked the early part of Colby’s career, which, if that’s what he’s implying or thinks, is false. AJ Van Slyke only “played with” Rasmus in the sense that they were both in the same farm system for three and a half years. They certainly weren’t on the same team for that long.
This particularly rubs me the wrong way because it lends credence to the idea that another knowledgable first hand observer (AJ) never saw Colby run into a fence. (Aside: Why is running into a fence the definitive measure of a centerfielder’s commitment?) I don’t follow what Andy Van Slyke is trying recall from conversations with his son – maybe both AJ and Colby spent some time in Spring Training together each season. There’s strong reason to believe, however, that they played less than 100 games together on the same team.
Van Slyke was asked specifically about Colby’s recent misplays on Bernie’s radio show so the conversation was contextualized in a negative fashion. That said his answer is hollow and misleading to me. Furthermore, it’s interesting to watch Colby seemingly scapegoated despite being off to a red hot start amid a sputtering Cardinals’ offense. The Cardinals are obviously willing to accept below par defense from important defensive positions (second base, anyone?) so what standard is Colby being held to and is it applied evenly? I didn’t hear the radio segment with Van Slyke and, in general, I think he’s right that Colby can and needs to do better on balls hit over his head. On the particulars though, Van Slyke was entirely wrong.
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I’m a Colby fan but I have to say I agree with the general idea of what Van Slyke said. Colby HAS to catch that ball. Not sure why they talk about him leaving his feet or colliding with fences because neither was necessary for him to catch it. He does seem gunshy around the wall but honestly who wouldn’t be after seeing what happened to Ankiel in 09. Colby did climb the fence on opening day of 2010 against the Reds. The play he dropped it was hard to tell if he slowed up because of the fence or Jon Jay who was on a direct path to him. Some questioned Colby the day before saying if he had dived on the track he would have had the catch. That I disagree with as a drive would have lead him straight into the fence headfirst, not someth ing anyone wants to do. Colby’s dad posts on another site and a thread about his defense went from no way he makes the catch the night before, to the next night where he drops Tejada’s bomb to his has to catch that one.
Yes, Colby has to catch the ball that he dropped but Van Slyke clouds the issue talking about the highlight reel. Colby and Jay have to communicate better. At the end of last year there were at least 3 instances where they almost ran into each other or one cut in front of the other to make the catch. Use your mouth and call the ball. It’s Colby’s ball he’s the CF.
After the U of Georgia being paralyzed yesterday after a collision with another player it might make one even more gun shy.
I dont remember Van Slyke being know for dives or running into walls. Maybe I’ve forgotten or wasn’t paying attention.
The numbers show that Colby is not particularly good at going back on balls. One has to also question why the Cards don’t have him play deeper.
If you don’t remember Van Slyke being known for diving or running into walls you’ve definitely either forgotten or weren’t paying attention. That’s exactly what he was known for, he played the position with reckless abandon. That may or may not be a good thing, crashing into a wall in Busch Stadium in 1993 was the beginning of the end for Van Slyke, but the dude was as smooth as could be out there, and was a human highlight reel.
This critique is attacking the trees and ignoring the forest. It’s clearly Van Slyke’s opinion that Colby is overly tentative or simply unwilling to risk his body to make diving catches or running catches at the wall. His immediate frame of reference is the ball at the wall that Colby recently failed to catch (it was not an easy catch, but it was one that should be made and the failure to make the catch guaranteed a Cards loss). Morever, it appears to be an opinion that Van Slyke has had for awhile. And if there is a chink in Colby’s defense, it is certainly going back on balls.
In any event, whether Andy’s kid played with Colby for three years or two, or whether there’s actually a clip of Colby leaping at the wall and making a catch that Van Slyke didn’t remember, doesn’t persuasively rebut Van Slyke’s point.
In other words, just because Van Slyke is prone to hyperbole, doesn’t mean he’s exaggerating.
I think this may be a case of use taking the critism of a guy we’ve all followed, rooted for and had high expections of for a long time a bit too personal. Colby has matured exactly as you’d hope offensively. He looks locked in to have a big year at the plate in his third full season, exactly what most of us expected of him as we followed him in the minors. If we are honest, defensively he hasn’t developed in to the CF we had hoped. It doesn’t make him a bad player at all if he has to move to RF at somepoint, plenty of great players have.
I agree totally the coaches do him no favors playing him shallow, just because Edmonds couldn’t doesn’t mean that fits Colby’s game. Griffey played a deep centerfield and one several gold gloves, playing deeper fit his skill set. Van Slyke’s opinion, though poorly put, isn’t totally off base. He is a mulitple gold glove winner and former MLB coach so his evaluations deserves some respect.
I’d love to see Whitey Herzog quoted in the St. Louis paper say “A 66 year old Whitey Herzog never writes that lineup.” Or, “A 66 year old Casey Stengel never hits the pitcher eighth.”
Doesn’t Andy Van Slyke have anothing better to do?
He was asked about it in on a sports show specifically that was the context so what should he have said? I have no opinion on the matter.
Irony is missed on you. You are actually giving an opinion to tell somebody else (who actually gets paid) to not give opinions.
Truth is, he is right. Colby isn’t good going back and is tentative around the track. However, we forget that he is still only 24. Its a learning position with experience. Rasmus also missed a big chunck of time in AAA.
“what standard is Colby being held to and is it applied evenly?”
i was under the impression that as a prospect he was billed as well above average defensively if not gold glove caliber, so that is the standard i am using. i dont care what kind of defense the cards are getting at other positions. so far he has not lived up to the hype, imo. perhaps the scouts were wrong, or maybe i am just not remembering the scouting reports accurately. perhaps he will improve in time. the tools are definitely still there. he has a good speed and strong arm.
it is a bit unfair to compare him to jim edmonds, but given that edmonds is a GG center fielder that we are familiar with i certainly understand why people use edmonds as the yardstick. edmonds was very, very good at going back to get the ball and being aware of the wall. that does not appear to be colby’s strongest point. that won’t prevent rasmus from being a good center fielder, but it will prevent him from being jim edmonds, jr.
And that is a good point. he is being compared to some pretty good outfielders. IF you want a legit comparison, it might be a AA or AAA outfielder since that is where most 24 year olds are playing.
good post. However, you mention ‘prospect’. He is still a prospect. so when they get those labels, its what they could evlovle to be, and not necessarily what they are.
If holliday was in left field, i think rasmus catches that ball. Rasmus and jay just don’t work well together, from what i’ve seen.
I’d be a lot more afraid to run in to Holliday than Jay. Holliday looks like he could be a linebacker. :)
I just meant it seems like they communicate a lot better with Holliday. Jay and rasmus seem to always almost collide or miscommunicate.
Happened abotu 3 or 4 times in a month period last year.
part of the problem is with tinkerin tony moving people around all the time
just takes longer for more combinations to work out
in theory it shouldn’t, but in reality it doexs
I think he was.
Holliday wouldn’t have been that close to the ball. Yes Holliday knocking you over is alot worse but they wouldn’t have been on the exact same path as Rasmus and jay were.
Speed is not everything. Holliday gets excellent jumps on the ball.
So does Jay and he’s got much better wheels.
must be missing those good jumps from Jay…colored me not impressed with his read on the ball.
Totally agree. Jay has been pretty bad in the corner OF spots last year and this year…he’s misplayed and just dropped a number of balls….Jay doesn’t seem to know what he’s doing out there any more than Rasmus.
If Holiday was in LF, he wouldn’t have been where Jay was because he would have recognized that it was Colby’s ball and stayed out of the way…..if the ball isn’t caught, the game is over….there was no reason for Jay to be there…..but yeah, Colby should have caught it even with Jay on a collision course.
I agree but Jay ran a long long way to get to the point where he was at, don’t think Holliday would have got that far on that particular play.
I love what Jon Jay has given the Cardinals but if Colby gets seriously injured running into a wall the team takes a substantial hit. Colby’s bat is torrid this year. We need his speed in center to help cover ground for Puma in right. I’m fine with Colby not running into walls.
As for Van Slyke not playing CF when he broke into the majors…..there was this guy named Willie McGee out there at the time. Van Slyke also had a cannon for an arm, so moving him to RF made sense. I agree with his general point that Rasmus should be a better defensive player than he is, given his skill set. I don’t really agree that crashing into walls and diving is the answer, but I think Colby might benefit by being a bit more assertive out there.
I find it hard to believe that anyone, no matter how much they like Colby (I’m a big fan by the way), can really contend that with his physical gifts, his defensive performance to date has been as good as it should be.
Everyone says it takes three full seasons of defensive metrics to make an accurate assessment of a players defense. So far, both the eyeballs and the stats say one very good year and one meh year. Let’s see how he looks by year end.
first, i really do not care what van slyke has to say. i loved him as a player, but his subsequent commentary – especially around the 2006 world series – makes me just think he’s someone who likes to make personal, offensive comments.
second, i really hope that what he says is true. i hope colby doesn’t want to smash into walls to show what a tough guy he is. i would much rather see colby play a couple balls off the wall than see him go on the DL. what are these smashing into the walls plays worth over a season, where you have two players exactly the same in their skills except that one is willing to crash the boards? two runs? three runs? i suspect that the risk that one has to go on the DL becomes much higher each time you do it. i know it’s baseball heresy to say it, but while those plays are exciting i doubt they make actual sense long term. even if you don’t want to actively discourage players from playing that way, i don’t think a player should be criticized for NOT doing it.
After seeing Edmonds with concussion problems in 2006 and Ankiel busting up his shoulder in 2009 from running into walls, I’m content to let Colby live to play another day when it comes to laying out and giving up your body.