The Cardinals seem set on making some kind of upgrade at the trade deadline. The two obvious areas of interest would be the rotation and the bullpen. Despite the rather weak cast of characters that make up the Cardinals’ middle infield, there are a lot of them and several of them are well regarded (rightly or wrongly) by the coaching staff.
Who the Cardinals would target in a trade is anyone’s guess at this point but it seems likely, given the composition of the Cardinals current roster and minors, that the player traded will be a outfielder (Colby Rasmus, Jon Jay, Allen Craig). The Cardinals have a handful of these types of players that other teams my covet to fill in offensive holes. If the Cardinals move an outfielder, what internal options will they have to replace them.
The Cardinals could call up someone that we’ve seen before like Mark Hamilton and play them out of position or use them as a bench bat. Hamilton continues to hit well at Memphis and is a familiar face to the coaching staff. As a left handed bat, Hamilton could be useful as a pure pinch hitter but will be limited by Albert Pujols return from the disabled list.
The other name that we’ve already seen for a spell in St. Louis was outfielder Andrew Brown. A bat prospect, Brown is an outfielder in name more than deed (he was the other half of the Shane Robinson outfield collision) but he, like Hamilton has put up some gaudy AAA numbers. Neither player is ideal if the Cardinals move Jay or Rasmus since the major league club would lack a centerfield backup.
Adron Chambers is the only true centerfielder on the Memphis squad right now and has been well received by some analysts for his speed and defense. His hitting this season has been sub par with an OPS under .800 in Memphis. Chambers will draw walks and can steal a base (10 SBs in 2011) but is unlikely to hit for power. He’s yet to complete a full season at Memphis but is currently on the 40 man roster.
The other outfielder in Memphis who warrants some consideration is Aaron Luna. Not being on the 40 man roster may limit the club’s ability to call him up in a pinch but Luna has continued to reach base at an impressive clip. After ending 2010 with a .415 OBP, Brown has a .389 OBP for 2011. He’s upped his power output enough to offset the small losses. The question with Luna remains how much of his OBP is talent and how much is comprised of fluky hit by pitch numbers. After being hit 28 times in 2010, he’s been pegged 9 times in 2011. Talk about taking one for the team.
Brown or Hamilton seem like the most realistic backups in terms of development should the Cardinals trade one of their major league outfielders. Adron Chambers benefits from being a true centerfielder and on the 40 man roster as well. Aaron Luna, who has produced at every sto pin the minors, is a darkhorse candidate to fit any of the parent club’s potential needs.
The question for this Friday: Which, if any, of the Cardinals major league outfielders do you think will be traded and who would be called up to replace them?
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Not sure if we would trade him or what he would bring back in a trade, but John Jay would seem the easiest for us to part with in a trade. That would open up a backup CF spot for Chambers who i think is ready for that challenge if this trade happened. Depending on what return you got for Jay, you could use the potentially open spot on the 40 man to put Luna on there so he could be called up in a pinch.
I think Jay is more likely to get traded than Rasmus or Craig. I know some will disagree with me as Colby has recieved the most attention as being a player the Cards may trade. However, I can’t see a trade out there that makes sense for the Cards to move him. Mo would have to feel like he’s getting the better part of the deal, and not just dealing Colby to move him.
Craig has dealt with the knee injury and I just don’t see his trade value rising enough that the Cards will get a fair return for him. That leaves Jay. He has a lot of value not only to our big league team, but also other teams as well. He’s cheap and hits for average, plays good defense, has an accurate arm, and runs well. I personally wouldn’t trade Jay unless I am getting a solid reliever that can pitch in high leverage situations, or a starter that is better than McClellan has been in the same role.
I don’t want it to be a situation where we make a deal just to make a deal. Those three are really important to the team’s success this season. I feel like, with all three, we have a better chance of winning that replacing one of them with Brown, Chambers, Luna, or Hamilton. Just my opinion. I would probably keep those three and deal some minor league pitching to get the pitcher(s) I want or covet.
I know this is somewhat off topic, but in other respects not, but I am in a 16 team mixed leagues fantasy league (indefinite long term keepers, 25 man rosters plus 4 on the DL…so that those of you that player understand the depth of the league) in which Rasmus’ father is one of the team owners. Earlier this week he added John Jay, who was a free agent, to his team. Is that a tell? I don’t know but I found it to be extremely interesting.
Even if it was an indication that he thought Colby would be traded soon, would you really trust Tony Rasmus’ intuition on that? From the very little I’ve seen of the guy on the internet, he does not seem to be on the same wavelength as the Cardinals’ management. It could mean he expects something, but I’m not sure that means anything is imminent.
You may well be correct. I just found it interesting, more along the lines of possibly Colby telling his dad something, rather than the dad’s intuition.
Don’t forget about Sugar Shane. He’s back rehabbing at Springfield. He’d have to be added back to 40-man, I presume, but he could play center, as well.
You’re right that Shane would probably be the best defensive fit and he’s a right handed hitter (to the extent that he hits at all) and could be platooned with the remainder of Jay or Rasmus in center. The prospect of any of these guys taking up a spot on the roster, though, doesn’t thrill me. Also I think Ras is the only guy we could trade who would get back enough pitching to make a difference and I think we’ll live to regret trading him low.
Its only trading him low if you accept garbage back in return for him. You don’t have to accept what every they offer like last year.
Yep and I’d swallow hard and accept it if we really did get what we needed for this year’s race and for subsequent years. I do look at our system’s outfielders though and don’t see much talent rising in the next couple of years. Berkman’s not a sure thing to resign and Taveras is a long way away. I just has to be a good deal to make me want to dip into our current pool of outfielders because they may be all that we’ll have for a while.
ie… Jake Westbroke (garbage)
Off topic, but Cards had three guys on BA’s Hot Sheet this week (Wong, Taveras, and Cox), and a positive mention of Jenkins as well. Wagner Mateo’s 33Ks in 82ABs in the Apply league was mentioned in the not-so-hot sheet. Might have dodged a bullet on that one.
Looking at our OF’s in the organization doesn’t make you overly excited.
DJ Tools = Broken Tool or Bust (really don’t see much there)
Adron Chambers = Sorry not much there either (not understanding all the love)
James Rapoport = Bust or last year in org
Andrew Brown = Has potential maybe something there
Mark Hamilton = I’m advocating a move to RF or LF
Aron Luna = Too bad he couldn’t play 2B (perfect size)
Shane Robinson = Unimpressed (singles hitter better fit at 2B, excellent speed, hasn’t done anything since 2008)
Kyle Conley
= If only the guy could have stayed healthy (were would he be, I suspect he would be putting up Adam’s numbers)
On a side note I’m advocating removing Kozma off the 40 man in the offseason… any takers
Forgot one:
Alex Castellanos = Putting up extremely good numbers this year (uncharacteristic of past performance though)
Kyle Conley:
His numbers after being drafted were absolutely off the charts at Batavia in 2009. IMO the organization really screwed him up when they moved him to QC so quickly in 09. Should have let him finsih the year at Batavia. I think had they followed the same plan with him like they did with Adams and he had stayed healthy we’d be seeing numbers out of him comparable to Adams.
2009 BAT .385 avg – 16 2B – 8 HR – .452 OBP – .752 SLG – 1.204 OPS
I’m with you on our outfield situation. None of these guys are any more then potential bench players. they’re add-ons in any trade and should be just to open things up in the minors. Pham to me is just another Joey Bombs. Not drinking the Chambers kool-aid either. He’s a fifth outfielder at best. My darkhorse from the bunch is Aron Luna. He has the potential to be another Allen Craig. Plus they already gave him a look-see at 2b. Tilson and McIlroy – not signed yet! Oscar Tavares is our one potential star and he’s 3 years away.
although he is currently injured, it’s a mistake to neglect tommy pham, who is a better prospect than any of the outfielders listed. he’s a legit centerfielder who has a roughly .400 wOBA over two partial seasons at springfield.
How long is he out for, btw? I never seem to be up to date on minor league injuries.
I agree. Although Pham seems destined to break our hearts he has clearly more talent thant the other outfielders in the high minors. Each of the past two years he’s had a broken bone interrupt a hot streak. He has speed, some power and BA named him the best outfield arm in the organization. Without those injuries he might be ready for the big time by now.
If you are including Conley, who I still like, why not include Taveras?
Was only looking at OF’s at PB and higher in the org.
Speaking of outfielders Jim callis said castellanos almost made his top 50, is there another castellanos out there or is he indeed talking about our outfielder
I’m sure he was speaking of Nick Castellanos of the Tigers.
Good catch. Our Castellanos would be a good joke.
I think Rasmus is the only player that brings back a quality starter. Can’t imagine that we would get more than bullpen help for Jay and I don’t know that that is worth it. I don’t think Colby is going to be successful in STL. Hellickson would certainly be worthwhile. I don’t know that we are going to get TB to do that though.
Yes, Rasmus could net a good starting pitcher. Jay and Craig could net a middle reliever. The rest (maybe outside of Taveras) are probably fillers in a trade until they can prove more at a higher level, including producing in the manner that Jay and Craig have this year with the big club.
Jay and Craig could net a middle reliever? Just note that two PTBNLs, plus some salary relief, netted the Brewers — K-Rod, who is about as much more than a “middle reliever” as Jay and Craig are more than your typical PTBNL.
The challenge facing Mo is to find a team that is as much a “motivated seller” as the Cardinals are a “motivated buyer.” The reason the K-Rod deal went down for so little outlay on Milwaukee’s part is that the Mets were glad to be rid of him and his expensive option, which was jolly well going to vest. They were motivated sellers. Either Jay or a healthy Craig could net as much from a comparably motivated seller, as both are clearly more likely to be useful than that typical PTBNL.
The problem is the “motivated seller” part. If the seller is NOT motivated, the asking price goes way up. If, for example, CC Sabathia was the sole shining star playing for, say, Oakland, Raz might be more than enough to snag him, because CC is hideously expensive and Oakland would be motivated to start (continue?) the rebuilding process by cashing him in on some cheap talent and payroll flexibility. The Yankees are not comparably motivated, to put it mildly, and would be unwilling to let the real-world CC get pried from their hands for anything less than Raz plus whatever other five players they wanted.
I don’t think any of the minor league OF are moved unless its Jones as a filler to round out a bigger deal, I think any major move with Colby in it will net some form of RH hitting CF coming back and if Jay is moved I can see Tyler Greene coming back up and playing some CF.
Also, I wouldn’t get overly excited about Castellano’s performance so far. He’s relatively old to be in the Texas League, is striking out at a pretty astonishing rate, and has a BABIP of .373 despite the increased LD%.
I can envision a repeat of the JD Drew trade with Rasmus going to Atlanta,I know we couldn’t touch Terehan,but maybe Beachy. If we could sweeten the deal a little,we could try to get Minor or Kimbrel in the deal as well.That would be both bullpen and stater help,not sure what we would have to add to Colby,but it could be worth it.Jay can cover center,until one of the two centerfielders we drafted this year are ready.
One of the CF we drafted this year? You mean Tilson and McElroy? Both of these kids are 21 and very raw. We won’t see them for quite a while, if ever. Best case scenario is 4 years.
Excuse me, both just graduated high school. Not 21. Sorr.
nicholas martini was a college OF and may move quickly. the rest were high schoolers.
Martini had my vote as the draftee who would advance most swiftly. Unfortunately he’s hitting way under .200 although he walks a lot. He’s going to have to start getting some hits.
Luna most likely will be added in the off season só it is not a huge stretch.
Of course if they really do trade an outfielder chances are we are going to see Stavinoha again this year. I don’t think he is a center fielder but I know the Cardinals have played him there before and it is not hard to get a free agent reserve in the outfield in the off season.
I am intrigued by Tony Rasmus being in your fantasy league though. Do you have a face to face draft? Is he as much of a control freak as they portray him as in the papers.
Your making a joke right??? About Nick Stavinoha seeing time ever in CF….
No, the draft is done via computer (Yahoo league). I made a trade with him in the offseason and the emails back and forth were very reasonable and easy going. I also haven’t seen any league messages posted by him that reflect on him the way he is portrayed in the papers.
He’s on another message board I post on and most everything written in the papers about him is wrong. People take what he says/said months previous and decide they want to make it a story so they create it without context. The comment about Colby not reachign his potential with the Cardinals. He didn’t just come out and say that. He was talking abotu why the Cardinals would sign Pujols and mentioned alot of good young cost controlled players to put around him. He mentioned about 9 names but not Colby’s. Someone followed up asking him why Colby wasn’t included in the list in mentioned. That’s when he mentioned that he doubts he is in the Cardinals plans for the extent of a future Pujols contract. He then mentioned that he may never live up to the expectations most fans have of him after having had Edmonds in CF for so many years.
Edmonds has spoiled a lot of Cardinal fans by his great seasons here in STL. If we would have had an average CF for the past 10 years, I think Colby would have a lot less pressure placed on him by the fans.
For example, if Colby would have followed Ray Lankford, I think there would be a lot less people trying to ship him out of town. While Ray was a solid player, he wasn’t an elite one like Edmonds. Much like the situation of Tino Martinez trying to follow Mark McGwire’s footsteps. Tino had a couple decent seasons, but no matter how much he tried, he couldn’t get out of Mark’s shadow.
Luckily for David Freese, Rolen’s departure was followed by Glaus (one good season, one injury filled) and then a compilation of AAAA players (Thurston, Barden, Feliz, DeRosa, K. Greene, T. Greene, F. Lopez, Miles, etc).
No one has mentioned the A’s as a potential trading partner. They have NO offense and excellent pitching. (Anderson’s TJ surgery lessens that a little). We have some players with gaudy numbers in the minors as well as some available bats in the majors. Matt Adams, Andrew Brown (who, I believe, also plays 3rd), Hamilton to name a few. People here tend to diss these guys, but their stats must mean something. The A’s have starting pitching and relievers who could help us (how often have we coveted Brian Fuentes?)
Or Breslow, another lefty reliever who could help.
Chambers is ok. He did not play much before turning pro and is still learning. CF is the lowest OPS OF position. For a PCL rookie CF, an OPS beneath 800 is fine. At least Chambers has the range to actually be a ML OF, unlike others.
Hamilton is not hitting for pop and cannot play OF. Brown is not much defensively.
Tyler Greene and Bryan Anderson might have some trade value, and the Cards do not have room for them, so they will be among Mo’s chips.
As a Cardinal Fan for over 25 years I truly get disappointed on comments made at times. I guess it”s because I care for our players in every level and wish them well. I remember when no one believed in Chambers or Brown to only name OF. People commented year after year that they wouldn’t get anywhere, yet, there turning heads. I had a pleasure to watch a lot of players play in Florida. Don’t know how many of you have but I have watched them excel. Charmbers has improved and so has Brown. In reference to the comment a Mrs Tlr made stating Castellanos is a joke, I ask, have you watched him play?
I have and I can tell you that he has great potential. Yes, he strikeout a lot but at the same time he hits, and hits for power. He has speed and steals bases. In addition he has the arm to get players out at the bases while playing outfield and doesn’t have to use a cutoff man to do it. He is in the top 10 in hitting in the Texas league and did very well when he was in PB so saying he’s a joke is kind of unfair. The kid put great numbers since being drafted.
To give my opinion on outfield today, I say Robinson 1st, Chambers and then Brown
Brian: Callis has probably not heard of our Castellanos. I like ours and he has performed very well at AA for an undersized corner OF. It was amusing ours got innocently mixed up with Nick Castellanos, a bonus baby; that was the joke, the mixup.
Am I impressed with our Castellanos because you have seen him? No. I knew about his arm, OPS, steals, and Ks, without seeing him. These are his qualities, independent of any fan. But its great you have seen him and like his play.
Our Castellanos was drafted at 2B and would project better had he been able to stay. His power and basestealing would be excellent for 2B. In RF, its tougher for him. But he is doing a great job at Springfield. He should get a chance at AAA next year or thereafter.
undersized? see chambers, a.
see Pedroia
I thought I had read somewhere that the Cards and Tigers Castellanos (s) are brothers. Does anyone know?
Yes they are.
I really hope we don’t trade any of those guys (Colby, Jay, Craig). It’s not so much that I’m particularly opposed to it, but that I just don’t see anyone on the market I’d consider as a worthy return.
I personally feel that the bullpen really only needs a guy that can get lefties out, or maybe one more guy that can get righties and lefties out. Motte, Boggs, and Lynn are all solid relievers, but generally fair notably worse against lefties. Sanchez had faired pretty well against batters on either side of the plate this year, but I think I remember hearing he had a rough time against lefties at the higher levels of the minor leagues. Anyway, Salas seems to be the only one in the majors at the moment who can get lefties out consistently, but I would’t trade Colby/Jay/Craig just because we need a LOOGY.
And I’m not sure I want another rental for the rotation. We’re already stuck with Lohse and Westbrook for next year, and with Wainwright coming back by then, we already have a full rotation for 2012 (and personally, I kind of want the Cards to pick up Carpenter’s option). I like Hiroki Kuroda, but those OFs haven’t even started arbitration years yet; he doesn’t seem worth it at that cost.
Craig would make the most sense to trade. We have more guys like that in teh system (RH OFers that aren’t very good at playing the OF). We should probably hang on to both Jay and Raz for the CF reason
I guess I was kidding… no I don’t think Stavinoha is a center fielder or should ever play out there. I know he has never started out there but was in my imagination that TL actually moved him out there during a game in the past year and he actually made a good catch going back towards the wall? Anyone???? Buhler???
Fun fact from the current issue of BA:
Aaron Luna set a record in the 2006 College World Series by being hit by pitches 5 times. The record was tied this year by Scott Wingo of South Carolina. As a freshman at Rice Luna was 2nd in Division I with 25 HBP. (Jon Jay, a junior at Miami, was tied for 4th with 23.)
He also led the Texas League in 2010 with 25 HBP, according to the BA Almanac. I wondered if that led all the minors, but it didn’t. A guy in the Carolina League was hit by 30 pitches.
In Luna’s case, HBP seems to be a repeatable skill, going back to his freshman year in college and continuing into AAA.
Does Luna have the tools to play centerfield? If so, could he be the righthanded platoon for Jay if they did trade Rasmus?
i have never seen anyone play luna in CF or talk about him as having the tools for it. i doubt he has the chops for it.
I would think it would be difficult for anyone to just “play centerfield” without ever playing that before. I’ve seen the Redbirds play a couple of times this year. If Luna is slower than Chambers it’s not by much but speed alone doesn’t make a good center fielder. As for Luna’s HBP numbers, IMO it seems to have more to do with scouting then his skill at getting hit. He does not crowd the plate at all and stands at the back of the box like most others. Maybe the reason his HBP numbers are down this year is that people realize the he isn’t moving when they make a mistake and are pitching him away.
I remember when Luna was drafted we learned that he was a running back on the same HS team as Chase Daniel, the former Mizzou QB. I don’t know if he had a chance to play college FB, but he chose to play baseball at Rice.
So I always figured he had some speed, but it hasn’t translated into the traditional speed-tool stats. For his MiLB career, he has 18 stolen bases and 9 triples.
I’ve never read anything about his arm strength. FWIW, he’s had hardly any outfield assists in the minors — maybe 3 per season.
If we needed another outfielder, there’s always Amaury Cazana. I have no idea how the logistics of that call-up would work, though.