Three games, three starters. This past weekend I had the opportunity to see Trevor Rosenthal, Zach Russell and Boone Whiting start for the Quad Cities River Bandits. Two out of three weren’t bad.  I’ve also got some notes on Ryan Copeland.

I’ll have more scouting reports on Saturday (relievers) and Monday (hitters). I had originally thought this would be one post but … it turned out to be considerably longer than I expected.

Trevor Rosenthal

Rosenthal has impressive velocity. His fastball ranged from 90-96 but sat consistently 94-95.  In the 6th inning, Rosenthal was still pitching at 93 mph with his fastball. He also has a plus changeup that he’ll throw in the 83-84 mph range. Rosenthal has a loose curveball in the high 70s that needs some work. He snapped of 2-3 good curveballs but there were also hangers.

The first thing that was noticeable about Rosenthal was the easy, fluid mechanics. When he throws 96, it is a casual affair. There’s no strain. The arm motion does a great job transferring the torque from the lower half. He also doesn’t pause at the top of his leg kick but maintains forward movement throughout the entire motion. It’s remarkably effortless in appearance.

Rosenthal’s command was noteworthy for a hard thrower. He was consistently ahead of batters in the count with first pitch strikes. Cody Stanley had little trouble receiving the ball from Rosenthal and rarely was seen stabbing at pitches that missed location. In the 5th and 6th inning, Rosenthal’s command and mechanics would slip on occasion but he generally maintained composure well. His 2nd inning strikeout of switch hitter Micah Gibbs on a changeup and striking out the side in the 5th inning were particularly impressive. Rosenthal capped the performance off with a quick 1-2-3 in the 6th.

The capacity to be a starter is definitely there. His stuff isn’t on the same level as Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez.  The fastball shows good movement and velocity. The changeup was impressive and is obviously effective against lefties. I’d like to see Rosenthal cleanup the curveball a bit. Overall the control was good. I’d put his ceiling as a #2-#3 starter.

Zach Russell

I hope that Russell was simply having an off night on Saturday. The right handed pitcher was all over the place egregiously missing pitch locations and falling behind in the count.  Russell struggled to locate all of his pitches and resorted to poorly placed fastballs just to get a pitch in the strikezone.

His fastball sat 90-92 and touched 94. Velocity in the later innings was a problem as he tapered off badly during a lengthy 5th inning that saw his fastball fall into the 80s.  There’s not a lot to say about his secondary stuff as he was obviously struggling to get it over the plate. It was a night were very little was working and he didn’t look like a guy who was striking out nearly a batter an inning coming into this start.

Boone Whiting

Whiting was basically everything I’d hoped he be in a pitcher who has questionable fastball velocity.  Watching Whiting pitch immediately called to mind another minor league pitcher I saw last year: Scott Gorgen. (Gorgen by the way is rehabbing is Florida after offseason surgery. The initial injury that sidelined him lingered and lingered. What was supposed to be a brief DL stint has been a year of lost time.)

Like Gorgen, Whiting’s fastball sat 89-90 and touched 92.  Whiting had excellent command throwing his fastball to all parts of the plate and keeping it low in the zone. His bread and butter pitch was a great changeup that he’d throw in the low-80s.  Whiting would also throw a slurvey slider that I’d like to have seen with a little more velocity. Given his fastball command, the slider was effective but mostly unnecessary.

Whiting works quickly on the mound, which was a godsend after Russell and considering it was 94 degrees out at 2pm in the afternoon. (I had to go and change clothes before driving home because every inch of my clothes were soaked with sweat. Literally.)  His mechanics were easy and unremarkable. Whiting shrugged of catcher Geoff Klein no more than 2 or 3 times the entire 7 innings. Given Whiting’s somewhat slight frame (6′ 1″ 175lbs), he doesn’t strike an imposing figure but he’s very confident and didn’t rattle.

Whiting started out the game with a three pitch strikeout, made the second batter look silly and never looked back. Pitching through the 7th inning, he maintained a 90mph fastball and never lost the excellent command that he showcased to start the game.  Given the heat, I was particularly impressed with his ability to pitch 7 innings under those conditions.

Whiting doesn’t project much. His slider might get better but his fastball and changeup are basically finished products. The plus-plus changeup helps the fastball, as does the control, but Whiting’s ceiling is something like a mid-to-back of the rotation starter. In much the same way that I left Gorgen’s start a believer, I think Whiting has a solid chance to be a starting pitcher in the majors in spite of his sub par fastball velocity.

Ryan Copeland

I didn’t have the opportunity to see Copeland start but one of the Quad Cities’ players was kind enough to indulge my questions about his stuff. Copeland throws a fastball that sits 86-88 and can get up to 90mph. His primary offspeed pitch, and best pitch overall, is a changeup. Copeland will also throw a slider to same handed hitters.

Jeff touched on Copeland’s impressive performance in Quad Cities thus far. Like Whiting, Copeland isn’t a projection pitcher. His stuff is, by and large, a finished product.  Some people and some scouts will write him off simply because of his fastball velocity.  As a noted velocity advocate, that’s warranted criticism. (Whiting and Gorgen certainly face steeper odds than if they had their respective changeups and, say, a 95mph fastball.)

The most compelling points in Copeland’s favor for me are: 1) He’s a lefty. The velocity expectations for a lefty are not quite as high as a righty. 2) His changeup has nuetralized right handed hitters. Despite facing an inordinately high percentage of right handers, Copeland has struck out better than one per inning and 42Ks:5BBs.  This is critical to his success moving forward. If his splits start to go south against more advanced hitters, that’s probably the end of the line. 3) Copeland, like Whiting and Gorgen, has superb control. Right now, his strikeout rate is excellent though not elite for low-A. His nearly 9:1 K:BB ratio, however, is elite. Maintaining that kind of control will be important for his pitches to play better than the radar guns reading.

I always have a healthy bit of skepticism when a player’s fastball doesn’t sit at that magical 90mph threshold. (P.J. Walters, I’m looking at you.) Ryan Copeland will be the kind of player that is forced to prove himself at every level but, if he continues to pitch as he has in 2011, he should get the opportunity to do so.

50 Responses to “Quad Cities Starting Pitchers: July 29 – 31”
  1. KJG says:

    great writeup filled with great info thanks azru!

  2. Cards Fan in Chitown #2 says:

    AZ, first of all, thanks for the write up, great info!

    You mentioned that Rosy’s ceiling is a 2 or 3 starter, obviously his true floor would be not making it to STL, but in your opinion, and assuming he stays healthy, would you estimate that he’ll at least make it as a back of the rotation starter? We’re throwing about a combined 20M a year at our 4 and 5 starters so even if he makes it as a #4 starter with 6 cost controlled years, that sounds pretty good to me.

    I’ve never seen him pitch or even seen a picture of him, but from everything I’ve read, it seems like Whiting is kind of like a Woody Williams type pitcher. Would that be a reasonable comp at all?

    • Andrew says:

      Seeing Rosenthal pitch 2 times I believe that he can be a Major League pitcher somewhere for sure.

    • azruavatar says:

      With his fastball, a floor (assuming he makes it to the majors) would have to be some kind of reliever.

      If he could be a #2/3 then he could also be a #4/5. Or a setup guy in the pen. Or, perhaps most likely, trade bait.

    • azruavatar says:

      Don’t have a good answer regarding a comp. If they don’t jump out at me, I generally don’t go searching for them.

      • Hugecardsfan says:

        Poor man’s Oswalt. I think Oswalt was a junior college pick up and late round draft pick as well.

        • Hugecardsfan says:

          Oswalt was a 23rd round draft pick and wasn’t a top 100 until his 4th year in the minors.

        • Gruntosaurus says:

          Oz was (is) a small, skinny guy, but there was a lot of bite to his fastball in his prime. A comp topping out at 92 is maybe not entirely accurate.

          Possibly a better one is … don’t erupt when you see this … Kyle Lohse. At his best, Lohse has been a very good pitcher. The problem is that for the last couple of years, he hasn’t been at his best, and the main place where he’s lost ground is exactly the thing that Whiting sounds like he’s very good at: command of the whole arsenal. If the Cardinals get something like the 2007-2008 Lohse out of an 18th-round draft pick, they’ll be ecstatic.

          • Andrew says:

            Rosenthal throws alot harder than Lohse. He sat 96-97 in his first game of the year but he’s dialed it back since then in order to go farther in the game and not tired out. I think Rosenthal has much better stuff than Lohse.

            • Gruntosaurus says:

              The comparison was to Whiting, not Rosenthal.

              • Hugecardsfan says:

                Maybe so since 2 pitchers were mentioned. My suggestion was to comp Rosenthal with Oswalt.

                • Gruntosaurus says:

                  That fits better. Rosie actually has closer to a power-pitcher physique than Oz does/did. It is obviously unrealistic to hope for him to turn out to be another Oswalt, but why not hope?

                  • RCHIII says:

                    He just turned 21 and is still learning – he has all the physical tools. I don’t think his upside is limited in any way. Unrealistic to hope? Nope.

  3. solar pons says:

    thanks for your impressive information on the above pitchers..I have been waiting for this kind of writeup for awhile. thanks again azru…

  4. Chris says:

    Nice writeup. It’s good to get reports first-hand like this, to give us a better idea of what these guys look like in person.

    I saw Russell pitch early this season at Kane County, and your report on him is virtually spot on from what I observed from him in that start. His fastball command was poor, and his velocity faded as the game wore on. The one thing I saw that was a little different, was a good slider. He got a lot of swings and misses on that pitch, and on that day, commanded it better than his fastball.

  5. Cardini99 says:

    Thanks for the report Azru, very interesting stuff on all the pitchers that not all of us can see. Im most excited about Boone Whiting as ive always read his velocity was subpar so it was great to hear he has a plus/plus change up as well as another potentially effective 3rd pitch in his slider. The quality of secondary offerings were something many of us were concerned about, but since they seem they are his best pitches, sounds like we really may have a decent mid to back end starting prospect here which is very valuable considering his draft position! Thanks again for the info.

  6. lawless says:

    Great write-up. Thank you.

  7. tom s. says:

    az, you said whiting kept stuff low. did that translate into decent GB numbers?

    also, the mention of gorgen reminds me of another question: who among injured pitching prospects has got lost in the glut of high-profile stars emerging this year? gorgen? hooker? whose return should we be looking forward to in 2012?

    • azruavatar says:

      w/r/t groundballs, I’d say not so much. He keeps it low in the zone so players can’t get the line drive type swings on it but they don’t necessarily roll over it. It doesn’t have that kind of sinking action. I was more impressed with it’s tailing action away from right handers than the sink.

      I’m worried that Gorgen isn’t going to get much time to start upon his return. He’ll be 25 in 2012 and probably still in AA. Whether the Cardinals will have a spot for him in AA to start is an open question in my mind. He might be someone that gets released shortly after his return. Hooker made his first rehab appearance in the GCL on Monday (1 IP). His AA performance this year was pretty bad and I wonder if he didn’t hit a wall. I’ve kind of soured on him. Either of those would be legit choices. One alternative would be 2010 draftee Daniel Bibona who is on the DL for the Quad Cities.

      • Hugecardsfan says:

        Haven’t read a thing about Bibona’s injury and he was awfully promising last year. Any insight?

      • cariocacardinal says:

        I dont understand the Gorgen comments above. Do you not expect him to have the same stuff/control when he comes back? Gorgen was arguably a system top 10 prospect last year before he got hurt – the year he was having was phenomenal (who was the last starter we had a Springfield with an ERA below 1.50?)

        • cariocacardinal says:

          Note: The Cardinals have recently had a short lease with players coming back from shoulder injuries. TJ elbows they have been more patient and had better success.

        • Forsch31 says:

          I think what Azru is saying that because of his injuries, his progress has been held back and he’s getting pushed by prospects with more upside. Between two seasons, he’s only pitched 105.1 innings total in AA (19 starts, plus 3 relief appearances), so his excellent performance has a small sample issue. That, combined with his durability issues and lack of projection, means that he’s beginning to run out of time and there might not a whole of space for him.

          • azruavatar says:

            Something to this effect. I don’t think Gorgen was a top 10 prospect but I definitely think he was top 20. That said, he’s missed a ton of time with some injuries that didn’t clear up in the way the team hoped/expected. If he scuffles for a little while, I’m not sure what kind of a timeframe he’s going to be permitted to get things in order.

            • cariocacardinal says:

              Look at Parise and Freeman. If they are going to give those guys time, my guess is Gorgen will get plenty of time.

              My top 10 prediction on Gorgen was predicated on him finishing as leading the TEx league in ERA by over a run as he was when he went on the DL.

              • Forsch31 says:

                Pete Parise is pitching in Memphis, which has experienced an exodus of relievers because of call-ups.

                Sam Freeman is a good lefty reliever, something the Cardinals’ system doesn’t have much of. To be blunt, Freeman doesn’t have a lot of competition.

                Gorgen is a right-handed starter in Springfield, with a bunch of talent in Single A close to moving up. That’s the problem–he’s got a lot of better talented competition and there’s going to be a space crunch soon. Gorgen has limited time to prove he still belongs instead of another pitcher.

                Also, before he went on the DL this year, he started only 8 games. That’s a minuscule amount to read anything into any achieved stat.

                • cariocacardinal says:

                  I’ll put my money on Gorgen being around for the whole year next year (and probably a lot longer).

    • Cards Fan in Chitown #2 says:

      Bryan Martinez would be at the top of my list, he is pitching now but has been out all year up until last week I believe.

  8. Robth says:

    Thanks for doing this! I’d been hoping someone would give some details on Rosenthal, and this is great.

  9. Hugecardsfan says:

    Thanks az… Better information than I get from my paid service.

  10. VolsnCards5 says:

    Grunt was comparing loshe and whiting, not loshe and rosie

  11. VolsnCards5 says:

    I had not heard that news about Rosie’s changeup. This is great news. Azru, you may have seen him on a bad day for his hook. I’ve read before that his curveball is above average. If his change is above average as well, I don’t know how he isn’t our #3 prospect

    • RCHIII says:

      You may have heard that from me. I’m not a scout quality observer though. If I remember though, in this game that AZ was at, he didn’t throw that many curves. I know it is still a new pitch for him, so he isn’t as consistent as he would like. I do know that it is his Change that Organization wants him working on the most – so if AZ liked what he saw, I too find that very positive news.

      • VolsnCards5 says:

        I do remember you mentioning Rosenthal’s curve, but I believe I’ve read it somewhere else too. Regardless, i agree, the change being plus is very very good news

    • RCHIII says:

      I have also heard second hand that Rosie is considered the #3 pitching prospect by the Club. I have no doubt that was said, whether they were spinning a line of BS or not is another matter. But going back to the trade bait question, if that is true, then he isn’t getting traded unless it is for something special.

  12. sadsushi says:

    Thank you AZ..great reports..look forward to your other ones as well

  13. Paul from San Diego says:

    Cardinals Weskening Thmeselves
    I have been a Cardinal fan for most of my 69 years. I have always followed Cardinal prospects and hoped for a better team in the future since the days when the Sporting News was truly the Bible of Baseball and covered the upper minor leagues in depth. I find the current Cardinal management frustrating in their propensity for making deals that they must know weaken both the present and future Cardinals. Many have complained about the inadequacies of the Cardinal infield. I live in San Diego and subscribe to the LA Times. Anyone who followed the Dodgers knew that Theriot could not play shortstop any more. Ryan was one of the two or three best defensive shortstops in the league. Based on their performance Theriot and Ryan were similar hitters. Why was it a surprise in July 2011 that the Cardinals were losing games because of poor defensive play in the infield?
    I know TLR did not like Ryan. But a young TLR prided himself in getting the best from an Oakland
    team where most of the team and the manager hated each other.
    Similarly most observers recognized that Jackson was a fourth or fifth starter at best. Rasmus has the potential to be one of the outstanding players in the National League. TLR had no use for him. He would bench him at the least excuse. Then he demanded a trade. Rasmus statistics this year are similar to Matt Kemp of the Dodgers were last year. Kemp is a MVP candidate this year. TLR didn’t like Rasmus so he was gone. I dear how well Rasmus will do next year.
    How can the Cardinals expect to be a WS winning team when they are willing to throw key players over the side for nothing or very little?

    • Hugecardsfan says:

      Aren’t the pitchers from Quad Cities the topic on this forum. Here’s a spot to take that issue up:

      http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=11&sid=e964676de3ddb2c052de25843ab3f456

    • Mrs. TLR says:

      We got a strong armed hurler in Cleto for Brendan Ryan. Now we have finally replaced Theriot with Furcal.

    • Jim1956 says:

      Paul-
      Maybe being from way out in SD you have missed it. But Ryan and Rasmus both wore out their welcomes with a lot of imaturity. TLR gave both players tons of opportunity to prove themselves and both failed. Tony stuck Colby out there everyday for more than 2 months while he hit .180 something with little power, poor baserunning and below average defense. He refused any instruction from the organizations paid coaches. He reminds me of David Green back in the ’80s who was a can’t miss 5 tool prospect in CF. The guy never panned out. Potential and a transfer will get you a ride on the city bus.

  14. Kevin says:

    I went to the river bandits game tonight, but had to leave after the fifth. I watched russel warm up from about ten feet away. He looks to have a nice delivery, but I am no expert. He did miss up with his fastball, and I did not notice much movement on the pitch. I was not at the best angle to tell though.
    He had only allowed a few hits through five, but almost evey out was a loud out. The bandits center fielder made two really nice plays. Most of the outs were in the air, but as the game went on he got a few k’s on the curve. (I’m 90% sure it was his curve, but I did have a one year old that would not sit still.)

    A few thoughts on the hitters.
    Wong is short, really short. Maybe five foot seven, a little thicker than i thought he would be too. seems to have a nice swing, but I wasn’t overly wowed by his speed. It was good but not great. Tavares looks good, hit a triple that one hopped the wall at the 380 ft sign in left center. Gil looks athletic, but nothing really stood out with him tonight. Stanley has a nice stroke too, but he was also slot shorter than I thought he would be. He looked like a catcher though.

    Take my accounts for what they are worth. I am not a scout and I had a vey excited one year old with me.

  15. Blaise says:

    Great job, AZ! Absolutely love this stuff.

  16. nmstar says:

    Thanks Az…looking forward to your next installments.

  17. BigJawnMize says:

    AZ-

    You said that Whiting was throwing a slurvy slider. The video I have seen of him suggest that he has a large breaking curve ball. It is somewhat loopy but Barry Zitto-like (no where near that level) in its large top to bottom range. You didn’t see it at all?

    From what I have seen it looked like a pitch that could be refined into something nasty.

    • azruavatar says:

      If it is a curveball, then it’s not a true 12-6 or 11-5. He didn’t throw many. He was working mostly FB/CH all day. The breaking pitches I saw were too loopy to be effective, imo. It looked like a pitch that either needs to be cleaned up or he just didn’t have a feel for that day.

  18. cariocacardinal says:

    Despite the outing Az saw. Russell is having a strong second half (FIP below 3.50). He is age appropriate for his league and doing well. If the velocity drop off is the norm, he may be headed to the pen but I certainly haven’t written him off totally.

    • RCHIII says:

      By comparision, FIP for Whiting is 2.88 and Rosenthal is 2.89

    • Andrew says:

      The game I saw Russell pitch is was very similar to the last one where almost all of his fastballs were high he had very little control and seemed to come unravelled a bit. Glad he’s has a better second half of the year though and hope this last game was such a blip.

  19. teecee says:

    az, Thanks for your scouting report, it was very interesting. All four pitchers will do well in August and into the playoffs.

  20.  
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