The Cardinals placed 11 pitchers in our top 20 prospect list this year. One item that sticks out is that while the Cardinals have had the occasional late round break through (Trevor Rosenthal was drafted in the 21st round), the Cardinals have drafted well with their early round picks.

Consider that there are 3 first round picks on that list: Shelby Miller, Tyrell Jenkins and Lance Lynn. It’s still a long way for Jenkins to get into any kind of realistic”when will he arrive” conversation but Miller is not far removed from the majors and Lance Lynn is all but in the majors permanently.

The Cardinals also selected Jordan Swagerty with a second round pick and Joe Kelly with a third round. Both pitchers have moved all the way up to Springfield though their games are very different. Kelly is far more fastball dependent that Swagerty but also generates more groundballs.  Kelly is often discussed as a future reliever despite being a starter throughout the minors while Swagerty is discussed as a starter despite being a reliever in the minors (and sometimes starter).

The other late round pitchers include the aforementioned Rosenthal, 11th rounder Adam Reifer, non-drafted free agent Brandon Dickson and 18th rounder Boone Whiting.  In many ways, a list like this is survivor bias writ large. Singling out these four from the dozens and dozens of later round arms drafted showcases their talent and ability to progress but understates just how many pitching corpses they stepped over along the way.

While the draft has done well for the Cardinals, it’s hard to ignore their highest profile international signing Carlos Martinez who ranks #2 on virtually every prospect list behind Shelby Miller.  While Martinez is now the poster child for the Cardinals Latin program, he’s joined by another Latin signing, Eduardo Sanchez, from the Cardinals early developmental days in the region. in 2005, the Cardinals were ramping up their academies and making a serious push into the region. The Cardinals also acquired Maikel Cleto, a Dominican prospect, from the Mariners in the trade for Brendan Ryan.

Consider that the first half of the Jeff Luhnow draft era (2005-2007) included many early draft pick arms that faltered badly. In 2005, none of the four consecutive pitchers selected in the first supplemental and second round even received a cup-of-coffee visit to the majors or were considered valuable prospects after two years in the minors. 2006 fared a little better with Chris Perez forging a career with the Indians (don’t look his peripherals in the eye, however) and Adam Ottavino hanging on in AAA looking for an opening as a reliever. It also had Brad Furnish, Gary Daley and Eddie Degerman who all flamed out in Springfield. 2007 featured Clayton Mortensen and Jess Todd who have struggled to be more than replacement level in the majors.

Now the Cardinals are looking at Shelby Miller as a future ace, Lance Lynn as a high end reliever or mid-rotation starter and Tyrell Jenkins as a higher upside prospect than any of the names from 2005-2007.  The Cardinals may have just gotten luckier in recent drafts. They may have gotten better at developing pitchers once they are in the system. Regardless, the current crop of early round draft picks is undeniably the best of any moment from the Jeff Luhnow era.

38 Responses to “Early Round Pitching Draft Picks Paying Dividends”
  1. Gruntosaurus says:

    Don’t read too much into that 2005 draft. The odds of any particular pitcher drafted below the 40th slot overall making it to the majors are below 50/50, if you look across the history of the draft — somewhere around 4 in 10 for guys drafted in the forties, and obviously declining beyond that. Based on pure randomness in who makes it and who doesn’t, there was approximately a 1 in 8 chance of all four of those guys fizzling. That’s high enough that I am unwilling to say there was any problem in that draft or in subsequent player development.

    • Hugecardsfan says:

      My math suggests that is 1/16 not 1/8. Those odds aren’t great.

      • Gruntosaurus says:

        The fraction of late-first-round pitchers who make it, I repeat, is not as high as 50/50 — more like 40/60. 0.6 (not 0.5) raised to the fourth power is 0.1296. Close enough to 1/8 for government work.

  2. IllinoisCardinalFan says:

    Of course there is some gamble involved in any player draft, but scouts, stats guys and player personnel guys are paid to tilt the odds in the Cardinals favor. One would hope that the Cardinals as an organization learned something from the (2005-2007) drafts that has helped them to do a better job in the last couple of years. Luck or skill, which one was it? That’s what is up for debate and what makes following the process so interesting.

  3. Miller and Jenkins were both high schoolers as well.Shelby has been brought along cautiously,but determined, I hope Jenkins will be the same.If things go according to schedule, Lynn, and Miller will join 2013 rotation, to fill in for expired contracts.

  4. VolsnCards5 says:

    Hey azru–what are the chances you could line up a ore-draft chat with a mayo or a Goldstein type?

    • azruavatar says:

      Probably pretty good. Doing more draft stuff is on my wish list this year (among several other things) but I haven’t figured out how to tailor it to the FR yet. I have no desire or intent to compete with other sites that just analyze the draft.

  5. wileyvet says:

    The strategy in the early Luhnow years was to draft the hardest thrower, where he could hit the strike zone or not and they got exactly what they paid for. Nothing! They got lucky of course when they selected control artist Jaime Garcia in the 20′s. Hopefully we learned our lesson (even though we drafted Seth Blair and traded for Maikel Cleto). Not to mention the acquisition of Shooter Hunt in the Rule 5. Never mind!

  6. Cards Fan in Chitown #2 says:

    I know this is a future redbirds site, but since this seems to have the most educated fans I want to float something out there.

    Oswalt, it seems, wants to come to STL to play. It’s an unknown regarding Westbrook or Lohse waving their no trade clause, but the fact is, the chances of all 5 guys staying healthy all year and with Waino coming back from TJ and Carp being worked hard last year, why not sign Oswalt for a year and let the roation play itself out. In the mean time, use a 6 man roation…..

    If we started out with a 6 man roation, #1 we would keep our guys fresh, #2 if someone (Westbrook or Lohse) struggules we can slide them into a relief role or beg them to accept a “fresh start somewhere else”, #3, and probably most probable, if someone gets hurt we can go back to a solid 5 man rotation. According to COT’s, payroll is at $103M right now without factoring in Motte or roughly 10 young guys at $420K or so. After freeing up the “Albert $” and also including the extra Dewallet made off the WS win, there has to be some wiggle room to make this happen.

    I’m personally all for this…… Thoughts?

    • zuke354 says:

      Its not a money issue. I think Oswalt could be signed cheaply, or at least on a 1 year deal.

      Will Oswalt want to come here to be a 6th man?

      Also, Oswalt is still a big risk. He migh make it through spring training, but what about July, August and September?

      Personally, I do not see the problem with Lohse and Westbrooke. Lohse was actually are better pitcher last season, and Westbrooke through 180 innings in the 5th spot.

      • RCHIII says:

        I don’t claim to be a “peripherals” expert, but everything I have read says that Lohse will materially regress. I think his projected ERA is 1.00 higher for this year.

        • Forsch31 says:

          While projections are a good guide to measure expectations, I wouldn’t consider the specific projections as gospel, especially since they usually don’t agree. Bill James, incidentally, projects Lohse’s ERA to be 4.02 next season, and only one I’ve seen actually is 1.00 higher.

          The thing to remember is that last season for Lohse was the first he’s been able to pitch healthy for about two seasons, and given that most of his peripherals don’t show any major anomolies (the HR rate was slightly better than it has been in his career, the GB rate was about average for him, and his K/9 and BB/9 were about in line with his career numbers) and given that he should have a better middle infield behind him for the majority of next season, I really don’t see a major regression coming for him. At least not one that would cause the Cardinals to dump a better-than-average No. 4 starter for a guy with a questionable back. With Wainwright coming off TJ and Carpenter coming off a big workload last season, I’d rather keep Lohse around.

          Westbrook replaced with Oswalt? Now we’re talking….

          • RCHIII says:

            Good point on the stronger D behind him – I’m not sure the projections have anything to do with his pitching healthy. I think it has to do with BABIP, fly ball rate, etc. – but again, I don’t know enough to argue it other than some seem to think a regression is coming. Of course, the flip side is I found Lohse a perfectly fine #4 other than maybe his cost exceeded his value of production – but we could afford it AND Lohse certainly had some nice wins. So, I’m not complaining. However, give me a choice between a healthy Oswalt and Lohse, I will have to go with Oswalt. Whether Oswalt is really healthy or not – that’s a whole other question.

            • Forsch31 says:

              I’ve never liked using BABIP as a projection tool for pitchers. It’s using a stat designed from the perspective of hitters in reverse, and I’ve got all kinds of issues with that. (The biggest…it immediately subscribes success to being “lucky” because there’s little to no context on the defensive side of the ball.) Also, health will have an effect on any projection, if those projections are including the two seasons he pitched with a wonky forearm.

              Still, like I said, most projections are not projecting a worrisome regression for Lohse. So dumping him for a guy who had major back problems last season doesn’t seem prudent. Which is why I suggested Westbrook, who was about average as a 5th starter. Bring Oswalt in and bump out Westbrook, you upgrade the rotation. Bringing in Oswalt to replace Lohse, you introduce a better pitcher with questions to a rotation with some questions, while keeping a fifth-starter-level guy.

              • zuke354 says:

                Agree with BABIP, FIP, are really not good stats for certain types of pitchers.

                For one, they are flawed. They make the assumntion that there is no such thing as a “pitcher” and that everybody who takes the mound is a throwers that get lucking when a a ball is hit.

                After years of watching Greg MAddux and a Dave Duncan staff, its obvious that their is an art to getting a guy to weakly hit the pitch you want them to hit to produce an out. The guys who do this well over a career are called HOF, FIP call them BABIP/FIP call them lucky.

                • Forsch31 says:

                  All stats are flawed in some way. However, FIP, which is actually designed for pitchers, is a far more accurate stat than ERA to evalute and project pitchers. FIP doesn’t call them “lucky.” It’s designed to eliminate fielding from a pitcher’s effectiveness, so you can evaluate a pitcher’s individual skills on what he actually controls directly in his performance (such as walks and strikeouts). BABIP includes several things that the defense influences, which is one of my issues with it.

                  If you’re going to evaluate and project a player’s possible performance, which is necessary in player development and roster management, you need statistics that are designed primarily for evaluation rather than results measurement. FIP does that, which is why Greg Maddux’s career FIP is 3.26.

                  FIP has flaws, which some other stats have attempted to deal with (like xFIP and tRA). Click here for a good article on the value of those statistics and how accurate they are in predicting future performance: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-well-can-we-predict-era/

      • jjray says:

        Oswalt will never be in the 6th man. If we signed him and everyone is healthy then it means Westbrooke or Lohse goes to the pen until there is an injury. Once the situation becomes clear to Weste and Lohse they may rethink the situation with the NTC.

        • zuke354 says:

          Future free agents love seeing guys get screwed over.

        • RCHIII says:

          True, but he may end up the sixth man based on performance if Lohse and Westbrooke aren’t moved. Given the questions surrounding Oswalt’s health, it’s hard for me to see a trade in this scenario until Spring Training has proven him healthy. If he isn’t willing to come here under those circumstances, then we can’t sign him IMO.

          • jjray says:

            Oswalt would have to regress in a greater degree than both Westbrook and Lohse on a performance basis to find himself behind those two.

            2011 FIP
            ——————–
            Westbrook 4.25
            Lohse 3.67
            Oswalt 3.44

            I think Westbrook is staring at a 4.25 FIP or worse in 2012. Oswalt will top that if he stays healthy. One usually thinks of Westbrook as an innings eater but he only gave us 183 innings in 33 starts … 5.54 innings per outing.

            • RCHIII says:

              I don’t disagree in the least. I’m just saying are we willing to risk Oswalt not being healthy? If we are ready to accept Lynn as a starter, then the answer is probably yes. If we aren’t, then it may be no.

              I also agree that given the option, move Westbrooke and not Lohse. I’m not convinced that keeping them both and signing Oswalt is an impossibility – other than it is costly. But I agree that Oswalt would get first dibs, but I don’t see how you stick with him if he looks shaky – and I would think Oswalt has to know that if he signs with STL which is why I think it is a longshot.

              • zuke354 says:

                Agree.

                But I am not sure I like the idea of Lynn as a starter right now. I like him in the position he is in on a contending team. If the cards were rebuilding, I would move him to starter.

            • zuke354 says:

              You are missing the point.

              I also think Oswalt would out permor him. If they can get him signed while not keeping everybody happy, then I am 100% for it. However, its just as simple as moving a guy to the bullpen.

              But you are making a huge and obvious assumption.

              “Oswalt will top that if he stays healthy” Why are you assuming that? That is not likely.

              With the cards actually having a good staff (Carp, Wainright, Loshe, Garcia), I am more willing to take a more sure inning eater with Carp’s workload and wainright comming back from injury.

              Plus, I don’t see want the cards to start screwing over FA players for a pitcher with obvious back issues.

              • VolsnCards5 says:

                this is a good point

                i say we go to a 6 man rotation…it gives oswalt, carp, and Waino extra time off…and cuts down on the number of starts westbrook makes

              • Forsch31 says:

                With two discs that are degenerating, Oswalt is much less sure an inning eater than either Wainwright or Carpenter.

  7. IllinoisCardinalFan says:

    I guess I have always assumed that by the end of next season and hopefully into the playoffs that Shelby Miller would be pitching for the big league club. Shouldn’t we leaving room for him in this equation?

    • RCHIII says:

      You mean Miller in 2012? I have always assumed 2013 with maybe a 2012 call up to look around, but probably not pitch much if a pennant race is going on. Of course, Miller could also force the issue – but pitcher’s heads are funny things. I hope they tread very cautiously and I bet they do.

    • Forsch31 says:

      Injuries or trades probably will take care of that. My guess is that what happened to Matt Moore last season in Tampa could happen to Shelby Miller–come up when the rosters are expanded, then pitch his way onto the playoff roster.

  8. IllinoisCardinalFan says:

    I guess I was imagining a Matt Moore type of situation, maybe a couple of September starts and a power arm for the playoffs. If they can limit his innings enough at AAA.

    • Cards Fan in Chitown #2 says:

      Why rush him? If I was in charge, I would bring him up in mid 2013 when he is undoubtedly ready…. then he will be under team control through 2020 if my math is correct? And then do the same thing with Lil Pedro in 2014 and then Jenkins in 2015

  9. IllinoisCardinalFan says:

    If Miller really is a top 5 prospect in baseball, as many sites have him as being, then he should be on track to pitch in the big league this season shouldn’t he?

    Of course you don’t want to have another Ankiel situation, but totally losing control of your pitches is a rarity.

    So if Miller is really as good as everybody thinks he is and the Cardinals are in the playoff hunt as they should be. It is hard to imagine them not using Miller towards the end of 2012.

    • Forsch31 says:

      Miller may be top 5 in talent, but he’s still developing his secondary pitches and use of them. He’s the kind of talent who you can fine-tune in the minors, then drop him into the rotation to perform at a possibly high level. I’d rather not rush the guy, especially when there’s no need with a full rotation and possibly good spot starters in the bullpen.

      • PJ says:

        I would think that at this point Shelby is about 8th in line. We have our 5 starters. Next up would be KMac. Then Lance Lynn. Then SMiller

        • VolsnCards5 says:

          oh gosh…please lynn>kmac

          • Gruntosaurus says:

            This isn’t about quality of pitchers, it’s about the tactical moves of having them start and dealing with the consequences. Lynn is obviously useful in long relief/setup, and there is reason to wonder whether he would lose effectiveness if asked to start. K-Mac, well … he is what he is. Last year suggests that if used in moderation, he’s roughly as effective (or ineffective) as a starter as he is as a reliever. Between this fact and the relative sizes of the holes he or Lynn would leave in the pen, I agree with PJ’s rank ordering.

            I would actually suspect that AT THIS TIME, Miller still ranks below a couple of other guys as a break-glass-in-emergency major-league starter — certainly Boggs, maybe Scrabble, conceivably Brandon Dickson. None of those guys will be as good as Shelby going forward, but at least until mid-June, I see any of them as at least as likely to be pressed into the rotation as he is. After that, assuming Shelby continues to blow minor leaguers away, things change.

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