The Cardinals reassigned left-handed catcher Robert Stock to minor league camp yesterday, as a right-handed pitcher. Coming out of college, lots of scouts liked him more for his arm than his bat. Let’s take a look after the jump at what the Cardinals have in their brand new pitcher. (Thanks commenters for the heads up to the story.)
Derrick Goold has the breakdown in his article:
“It wasn’t something he was happy to hear,” said Matheny. “He wanted to make a great run at catching, but I think he’s got a bright future as a pitcher.”
Asked if Stock had any of those characteristics, Matheny replied, “Yeah, upper 90s (velocity). Upper 90s always gives you a pretty good shot at getting up there.”
It seems to me that Stock really wanted to be a catcher and a hitter for his baseball career. The Cardinals played into those notions as they announced him as a catcher at the draft and let him catch. The number one reason why they let Stock catch is so that they could get him to sign a contract after the draft and still have his rights if he needed to make the change to pitching, where most thought he had a higher ceiling. Three years later, he only had one good offensive stint and that was in his first year at Johnson City. He hasn’t crossed the .700 OPS line in any stops since. Stock is resisting the move, but with the success the Cardinals have had with Jason Motte and others, Mr. Stock should see the writing on the wall and that his path to the majors is on the mound.
Motte and Stock are not really comparable pitchers as Stock already has a three pitch arsenal and Motte only had his fastball (some would say he still only has his fastball). Let’s take a look at the scouting report for Stock.
From Baseball America, when he was drafted:
The Trojans turned to Stock as a starter this year, and he has delivered. He made his first start March 29 and beat Arizona State, striking out 10 in five innings, and hasn’t looked back, registering a complete-game win at Arizona and showing surprising polish. His delivery is fairly easy, giving him good control of an 88-92 mph fastball that can hit 95 and a surprisingly good changeup that some scouts consider a plus pitch. His low-80s breaking ball also grades out as average, and Stock now figures to go out in the first three rounds as a pitcher—if he proves signable.
Here’s his USC MLB Draft pitching video so that you can see for yourself. I love his 80 MPH change-up.
What do you think about the move? Are the Cardinals adding a 3rd or 4th starter prospect to their system with this move?
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3rd or 4th starter prospect? Maybe for Extended Spring Training. The kid hasn’t pitched in 3 years, give him some time.
I think he means his ceiling is as a #3 or #4 starter.
Yes, ceiling/projection. That’s what they thought of him coming out of college. May take him a few years to fully convert, but should climb fast once he gets his feet under him.
I know what you meant. I say until he throws one pitch in any sort of organized game his ceiling is that of an Extended Spring Training pitcher. He hasn’t thrown a pitch and you’re saying his ceiling is that of a mid-rotation major league starter? What’s your rush?
That is kind of bizarre. Guys are projected based on tools all the time. How do HS players just drafted make top 100 lists? They haven’t seen one inning either.
I disagree completely, Tom. A projection is exactly what it means: An estimate or forecast of a future situation or trend based on a study of present ones.
True, but I do think TomB has a point; the guy hasn’t pitched in three years. It’s not quite like a young projectable guy that has been pitching in high school. He’s less young, not projectable physically, and hasn’t pitched since college. I still think you can project him, but it’s important to note that he may be a little more difficult to project than most.
Not bad for a 70th pick selection.
If stock makes it as a #3/#4, that would be great. These guys are extremly valuable. I would say the most overpaid/biggest position gamble in baseball is probably that mid rotation starter.
Some of these guys will flame out, but the Cards are seriously “stocked” with higher ceiling guys. But as someone once told me, there are a lot of pitching positions to fill. If Stock does well, the worst is he is a trading chip. Good pitchers will pitch somewhere no matter what. I just don’t see any downside with this move.
My feeling is that most prospects that fit that description (mid-rotation starter) really don’t have a high success rate because their ceiling is so limited and they usually struggle more when they hit the higher levels. The Cardinals system used to be flush with these kinds of pitchers; now you hardly hear about them because of prospects with top of the rotation potential.
If that changeup is a true out pitch, then Stock’s probably got a better chance at making it because it’ll off-set his normal average fastball velocity. He’s also showing some good movement on his pitches in that admittedly 30-second video. Does anybody know what kind of fastball he’s got?
Another thing to keep in mind–as a starting pitching prospect, Stock’s pretty much in the same boat as Jordan Swagerty. At USC, he was primarily used as a reliever, starting only 9 games in 20 appearances in 2009. He pitched 77.2 innings that season (after 10 innings in 11 appearances in 2008 and 29.2 innings in 14 appearences in 2007), but unlike Swagerty, he hasn’t pitched an inning since he was drafted. Stock’s going to be a project, which is probably why they’re doing this even after his decent showing at the plate in Palm Beach. He’s only 22, so they have time to shake the rust off and build up his innings, and with his set of pitches, he should move quickly after that’s accomplished.
Sorry but have to disagree with Matheny on this. Nothing I have seen out of Stock in 3 years had shown me that he can throw high 90s. 91-92 probably but not high 90s. He never showed a strong arm at all as a catcher.
Andrew, nobody is saying that he can throw in the high 90s.
Matheny did
Where?
In the article by goold linked above
Huh. Not sure why I blanked on that.
Also…sorry Andrew.
I wonder if they had Stock throw during ST from a mound … with a gun. Would seem to be prudent before making this move, which seems odd to me in that Stock has not yet washed out as a catcher as was the case with Motte.
I guess they could have done that, but given he was catching bullpens every day, it doesn’t strike me as likely – however, that would at least explain the Matheny quote…..
If they didn’t then Matheny is talking out his ass to help justify the move.
Pitchers usually gain some velocity if they know they’re not pitching a full game, ala Mitchell Boggs. That would easily explain Matheny’s quote, but I’m not sure if the velocity readings from Stock’s college career were from his starts or his relief appearances.
It looks like Erick Hurtado tested positive for PED’s and has been suspended for 50 games and STL has terminated his contract. The suspension won’t start until he signs w/ another major league team.
This is pretty disappointing. Even though these guys have a pretty high attrition rate, he seemed to have a lot of talent.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-minorleaguersuspended
The speed of his fastball seems to be up for debate. Scouting report says 88-92 but can hit 95 and then Matheny says upper 90′s. I guess we can hope that he has gained a little velocity on that fastball as he has gotten older. Every tick on that gun raises that ceiling a little.
So far, imo, Matheny has been overly positive in the media.
Its kind of irritating that the Cardinals indulged Mr. Stocks delusion that he was capable of being a major league hitter for as long as they did, seeing that the older he got the lower the odds of him actually being able to be a starter long term.
Now its pretty much a certainty that he is nothing more than another right handed reliever. That last three month stint as a full time starter at USC was pretty damn impressive.
I guess if he actually does become a productive major league reliever, the pick was obviously a success, but his upside has been wasted to a considerable degree over the last three seasons.
On the otherhand, he had a chance to observe the game as a part of the battery. Should be a valuable experience moving forward in regard to thinking through the game; he’ll begin his pitching career with minimal wear and tear on his arm too.
>>>”Now its pretty much a certainty that he is nothing more than another right handed reliever.”
I’m not sure…he’s only 22, so it’s not like he’s running out of time, and the Cardinals seem to like taking projected relievers and stretching them out as starters in the minors (Swagerty, Kelly). With his three pitches, Stock will have an opportunity to show he can be a starter.
Not sure what you are irritated about. The cards selected him at the end of the second round. Comming out of high school, he was a high catching recruit as well. And actually projected as a good enough catcher to not only stay at the position, but excell as well. All good reasons to still give him a chance. Plus he was young for a draft eligable college player.
And even still, the cards would be thrilled to get a good arm at that position in the draft. Still younger than a college senior. Similar comp to swagerty. Taken about the same time as a shane peterson or David Kopp.
Stock did not hit enough at QCities during 2010. Maybe the Cards gave him 2011 to see if he could get it going, plus to see what they have in Cody Stanley. The Cards have no need for Stock at catcher and his future there would be like Derba or Matt Pagnozzi. As a pitcher, however, Stock has a chance. It may be a long-shot, but its still a better chance.
I believe he was hurt early in 2011 which gave Stanley the starting gig for the first half of the year. Stock returned didn’t play well and was then promoted to Palm Beach were he did a lot better. Yea it took too long but I’m not holding my breath for him to be anything as a pitcher either. Where does he start? Does he go back to JC or Batavia? Or work on pitching in EST and then start the year in QC? It’s a unique situation he pitched for a major college program which is equivalent to about QC but it was 3 years ago.
Casey Mulligan switched from catcher to pitcher after the season started in 2008. I believe he spent a coupe of weeks in EST and then made 3 appearances in the GCL before being promoted all the way to Palm Beach. I believe Casey pitched some in HS but didn’t have near the experience of Stock. Yunier Castillo switched last year mid-season. He was a SS one day and a few days later he was pitching for the same team in Batavia. Looks like there is no definite pattern. Probably depends solely on how he looks as a pitcher. If I had to bet though, I’d expect to see him at QC a couple of weeks after the regular season begins.
I don’t think the extension of Yadier Molina should be overlooked in assessing the timing of this decision. The Cardinals may have made this decision at this time, either way. But I would think having a catcher, if healthy, penciled in for possibly the next 7 years would lessen the need to roll the dice that Stock figures out how to hit. He would have great value as a catcher, in terms of trade value. But as a pitcher, it appears his odds of making it are better, at least as a rh reliever, he would still have value as a trade chip, and a much better chance of playing for the MLB team.
The benefits of giving him more time ran out.
I guess this is a chicken and the egg argument, but I would look at it from the opposite direction. One of the reasons the Cardinals were so hot to sign Molina was because they didn’t have a catcher in the minor leagues that they thought could replace him.
Arguably not a player in the entire MLB that Molina could be replaced with.
Agreed. But keep an eye on Salvador Perez when the Cards play the Royals. Picked a guy off of 3rd his first MLB game last year. Some are comparing him to a young Pudge.
Yep. Stock was a bit of a long shot as a MLB catcher. He wasn’t hitting well and never had a good bat, and reports on his handling of the position were mixed, at best. I think the decision to move Stock to the mound came now because of his age rather than anything else. He hasn’t pitched for three years, so they need to build back his stamina, especially if they plan to stretch him out, and at age 22, he’s actually be age-appropriate for Single A ball.
Just needs to be mentioned that Ottavino had 4 strikeouts in 1.0 innings of work. Just liked the box score line.
2 wild pitches and a walk, also.