The Minor Links post, which recaps news and analysis of Cardinal prospects from the previous week is moving to Saturdays. Be sure and check back Saturday afternoon.
Several close games today as the farm system goes 2-for-2. Chris Edmondson has a distinguishing night and Kyle Hald comes back strong from a disastrous previous start.
- Adron Chambers was 0-for-2 with a pair of walks. Chambers is not making a very compelling statistical case that he’s a major league caliber bat. With a sub-.700 OPS, there’s little pressure for Eric Komatsu to worry about his job due to Chambers. I still think that Chambers combination of speed and centerfield defense offers a exploitable skillset in late and close games. It’s hard to argue to keep a guy on the major league roster just because he’s fast though. Chambers needs to do more with the bat.
- Allen Craig, DH, was 1-for-4.
- Matt Adams was 1-for-4 with a HR.
- Jermaine Curtis was 1-for-1 with a pair of walks.
- The Cardinals faced off against former MLB pitcher Vin Mazzaro who is currently with the Kansas City Royals organization. Mazzaro was, at one time, a highly touted prospect in the Oakland Athletics system.
- Brandon Dickson went 6 innings allowing 8 hits and 3 runs (2 earned). He struck out 2 and has shown exceptional control on the season walking just 7 batters in 27 innings.
- Maikel Cleto a scoreless frame striking out 1.
- Eduardo Sanchez continues to have less than desirable results. Sanchez allowed 3 hits and 1 run in the process of picking up his 4th save. He struck out 1.
- Kolten Wong was 2-for-4.
- Audry Perez was 2-for-4 with a double.
- A weak night for Springfield at the plate where the amassed just 7 hits and only Perez’s double for extra bases. The opposing pitchers got the better of them striking out 9 and walking just 1.
- Scott Gorgen was lit up for 9 hits and 5 runs (4 earned) in 5.2 innings. Gorgen struck out 2 and walked 1.
- Eric Fornataro continues to remake himself as a reliever. He pitched 2 perfect frames striking out 2 and continuing his groundball strength. If you want a quick and dirty comparison to Fornataro to another Cardinal relief prospect, Chuckie Fick fits the bill. While Fornataro may have a bit more velocity on his fastball, Fick is a reasonable blueprint for how Fornataro can succeed.
- Chris Edmondson was 2-for-2 with a HR and a pair of walks.
- Chris Corrigan had his longest outing of the season with 4 innings allowing 4 walks and 6 strikeouts. Palm Beach has been forced to use Corrigan in a starting role given the continued problems with Seth Blair. They essentially have a planned bullpen start in their rotation.
- Iden Nazario struck out 2 in 2 innings while walking 1.
Quad Cities 1, West Michigan 2
- Colin Walsh was 2-for-4 with a double. Walsh currently has a .976 OPS.
- Kyle Hald showed his impressive control in a reversal from his last start. He struck out 6 in 6 innings allowing just 3 hits and 1 walk. It was easily Hald’s best outing of the young season.
Entries (RSS)
why hasn’t boone whiting picthed yet in 2012 ?
Nope on the DL.
with what injury ?
Forearm strain.
Walsh is playing like a man that wants out of cold Davenport for sunny Jupiter.
Fornataro throws more than a bit harder than Fick. Sitting 94 to night and hitting 96 and 97 multiple times with a very hard 12-6 curveball.
Gorgens line was uglier than the reality of it. Scattered 7 hits through 5 innings with the 1 run being a blast by their second best player. Ben Paulsen. In the 6th he led off with a double. Was sac’d over to 3rd. Gorgen gave up a walk. Paulsen was sac’d home on a bang bang play at the plate. Then another walk and a ground rule double to center that could have been caught had Taveras not been so shallow. He literally ran forever to try to catch the ball but it still dropped in a few feet past the track. Taveras seems to have slightly modified his stance at the plate. 1 of Wongs hits was definately an error.
So there ya go about taking a higher velo guy and moving him to the pen…why wasn’t that done with Ott? Because they gave him more of a larger bonus? This is the point I was trying to make and end of it as this move shows how sometimes those higher velo a bit wiild type of guys work well out of the pen (and yes I have seen him in person).
If Gorgen had been Rosenthal or Miller you would have used a whole paragraph (or two) for excuses, but reality is that Gorgen is the only one that has an excuse, recovering from TJS. I think he has done well considering the circumstances, problem is that the pen isn’t always reliable in springfield and never was so knowing Gorgen he would rather finish the job himself. Problem is he is not Waino and knowing what I do, I hope they are not rushing him. The best years were with with Martinez. I actually think that Shelby is where his is to be with the better pitching staff.
I reported EXACTLY what I saw. Fact is Gorgen wasn’t that good through 5. He gave up a lot of hits and a lot of hard contact. Notice in my reports i.e. Gorgens last outing I did defend him because he had only given up 2 hits through 5 before the wheels fell off. What’s wrong with Springfields pitching coach? Pitch you seem to think you have some info that every else doesn’t. Once again they won’t keep a coach around if they don’t feel he’s doing a good job.
Regarding Fornataro, he wasn’t very successfull as a starter. Truthfully, yes Ottavino being a 1st rounder did probably play a factor. Also look at the quality of the pitchers in our system a few years ago when an Ottavino transfer to relief would have happened? We didn’t have anything in our system. Our starting pitching it stacked now in the Minors with Lynn and Garcia in the majors. We have more starting pitching options thus they felt they could convert fornatatro to relief.
Gorgen didn’t fall apart until the sixth. I think he was at 80 pitches by that time? He’s had TJS and probably still having some issues. I personally think he did well up to that point.
Yes without a doubt in my mind Martinez should be the pitching coach at the AA level.
I guess you didn’t get my part about the piggyback system and how they were trying to turn every pitcher into a starter. I do believe that hurt many guys in their development and in injury.
The Piggyback system is over so we don’t need to really harp on it. The organization wanted to get an eye on as many pitchers as possible to see who they thought would be the best starters. In theory it works but in practice it didn’t. Who was hurt by the piggyback system?
I don’t get who you think was hurt by piggyback? It’s simply possible during that time period we didn’t have very good starters.
Last game he was at abotu 55 through 5 innings. 80 pitches through 5 is a lot. I’ve been a Gorgen fan since I saw him in Spring Training. Yesterday WASN”T one of his better game. He gave up hard contact throughout the game and he wasn’t as sharp as I can imagine he has been from listening to his other games.
I have Gorgen in my Top 10 pitching prospects for the Cardinals. My report wasn’t to rip on him just to let people know he wasn’t as strong as he had been earlier in the year. I believe Martinez is in Jupiter because he also works with the EST players. Martinez is the only one who really connects with the Latin Prospects are there are great many of them.
There are many pitchers whose arms were hanging after they moved up from the piggyback system. They complained, and they got rid of it because of all the injuries and because Miller had elbow issues. Remember when they took him off and left those on?
But Andrew, you seem to know better, so I won’t even bother anymore.
BTW, one last question, do you personally know any of the players or coaches? I was just wondering if most of this is your opinion or from what players or coaches tell you?
No I don’t most of my opinions come from following the games, listening to them on online radio which every team provides. From going to Spring Training and watching the backfields and from going to about 10 RiverBandits games a year.
The piggyback system arose from the Cardinals wanting to get a better look at more pitchers. They reason that you can’t possibily know who your best pitchers will be so early in there development. Because of a strict pitch count especially early for pitchers it made sense to get a good eye on as many pitchers as possible. If someone showed they didn’t have the skillset to be a starter they were made a reliever. I believe even when we did have piggyback it was only Low A and High A.
Again whose development was hurt?
I know that Joe Kelly has been helped by the chance to start.
Am I the only one that gets tired of the racist innuendo surrounding Martinez and Latin pitching prospects? Imagine if someone said that we skipped Rosenthal over PB so he could work with a pitching coach of the same cultural background who might be able to relate to him better. And i want the quote of who said that Martinez is the only one that connects with Latin prospects. If ind it hard to believe anyone actually said that. Poor Jenkins, not a single balck pitching coach that he will be able to connect with.
If the piggyback was so good, why was it scratched? I am glad the Cards tried it. I am all for trying new things. But I don’t think it is blasphemy to say it didn’t create some problems. As for who it hurt or helped we can never really know for sure. Nothing says Joe Kelly wouldn’t have been a starter in a non-piggyback system.
How is anything i said racist? It’s simply true they like Martinez working with Latin Prospects because they connect with him better. Many including Martinez don’t know English very well yet so there is more of a comfort level who is in the country for the first time.
To put it another way, if you go to a new country and a new culture for the first time do you want your first pitching coach to be someone who doesn’t speak your language?
Regarding the Piggyback I never said it was great. It was scrapped for a reason. I was challenging Pitch to name one player who was “hurt” by it. I said I saw the value of it at the time w hen you didn’t have any obvious top pitching prospects so you wanting to get eyes on as many pitchers as possible to see who would make it as a starter.
I agree that what you said wasn’t racist but this isn’t the first time you’ve commented in a very authoritative way on something that 1) you don’t have unique insight into and 2) comes across as a very questionable or at least over-reaching conclusion. I don’t want to see anyone labeled something as vile as a racist without awfully good reasoning here but I think it could help to make sure that your conclusions aren’t going a step beyond what you know.
While I think Andrew’s comment that Martinez is the “only one who really connects with Latin prospects” is farcical, I’d rather we didn’t blithely through around the term racist. I don’t think it’s beyond the pale to think that many Latin prospects who are learning the native tongue in America struggle with some culture shock. I think it would be foolish to imagine that wasn’t the case.
I”ll amend my statement. Dennis Martinez is the best pitching coach for Latin Prospects especially the ones who don’t yet have the grasp of the English langauge that they eventually will. So it makes more sense for him to be in Palm Beach because it also gives him access to the EST players many of white are Latin and don’t yet have a strong grasp of the English language.
Add to that the possibility that other pitching coaches in the system may not have the grasp of the Spanish language in order to communicate in engough detail give quality instruction.
i apologize to Andrew as my wording was too strong for what i meant and I have no reason to think he is racist. However, the continuing preconceived notion that by their very race or cultural background that a coach is superior (or inferior) in their ability to relate to and coach players is insulting to coaches of all backgrounds. The language issue is arguable but there are many non-Latins who can speak good Spanish and many others have proven that it is not that necessary.
While Martinez is around the EST guys Im not sure he works with them that much. he does have another full time job.
I don’t know for sure but it would really be a waste of a resource to have Martinez in Jupiter about a 5 minute walk from the EST fields and not have him work with those pitchers.
Even if other coaches can speak Spanish it most likely is there second language there is some communication gap.
The problem with assuming there is a communication gap jut because it is someone’s second language is that would mean Martinez cant relate as well ass he should with non-Spanish speaking players if English is his second language.
To say it would be a waste not to have Martinez work with the EST pitchers assumes that a) by doing so he wouldn’t be taking away from time he’d be working with the Palm Beach pitchers and b) that the coaches in EST are inferior to Martinez.
Anyone else feel our RH relief cache has dried up?
nah. you could see fick, cleto, or reifer in the majors this year. other guys who fall out of contention for rotation spots will fill in. and our existing bullpen still has a lot of years of club control.
Are you giving up on Sanchez already? Fornataro and Gorgen should make good set up candidates.
Can’t respond to Carioca so I will here. I think it’s very safe to say that players who may know little or no English will be helped from speaking there own language more so than having to have someone translate information from the coach. Having been to Jupiter I’m assuming much of the practice goes on at the backfield rather than at Roger Dean due to the Jupiter Hammerheads also playing at Roger Dean. The two fields are directly next to each other. Why wouldn’t the Cardinals want Martinez to also work with high upside guys like Victor DeLeon and Andres Serrano if he is in the same quad area.
Regarding yoru comment about Martinez having English as a 2nd language so that may hurt him with English speaking pitchers. I believe once someone gets to a place of competence with a language it doesn’t really matter.
Fick could be there now if needed I think. Cleto needs control still. Reifer not sure if his sstuff has gone back to pre surgery time. Sanchez I just hope he figures it out, whatever it is that is causing him to struggle so much.
I was at the Springfield game tonight and was not impressed at all with the overall approach that was demonstrated by the hitters. I took a ton of notes and will be at the game tomorrow night also, expect a full report.
john sickel’s commentary on seth maness: “pointed him out as a sleeper in the book and so far he’s living up to that. I also wrote that we would need to see him in DoubleA before getting a legit read on how his stuff will play, and that remains true too.
“That said, 21/0 K/BB with 3.46 GO/AO….pretty dang impressive. Not huge velocity but keeps the ball down, good curve and slider. Intriguing guy.”
i’ll put a link in there because sickels deserves the page views.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/4/26/2976852/all-questions-answered-thread#comments
Yeah, tom, can you calculate that K/BB ratio for me. My calculator acts like it’s broken. o[
if this were another website, I would recommend this comment with great intensity.
Only Amaury Cazana can divide by zero.
I checked the Memphis score on my computer yesterday evening just as Craig came up in the 8th with 2 outs and 2 runners in scoring position. Base hit to tie the game at 3-3. I turned away for a minute, and when I looked back, it was 5-3, thanks to Adams’ home run.
They only had 5 hits, but they sure timed them well.
If Carpenter goes down when Craig is activated, that should be good for the Memphis offense (although bad for Matt, who’s earned a full season in St. Louis). It’ll be interesting to see who goes down when Berkman comes back. My guess is Shane Robinson, but he’s another guy who’s earned his earned his time on the varsity.
I guess they really, really like Komatsu, because now they’re stuck with him for the full season, even though a guy who’s never played above AA before this year may not be the best one to have on the bench of a championship-caliber team.
After Craig and Berkman return, Komatsu will no longer be around.
Possible, but pretty much doubt it. Komatsu has a very good plate approach and is apparently pretty good defensively as well. He may be optioned to Memphis next year, but I think he is going to be on the team all year because the Cards want him.
I think the Cards want him, but when you are at the top of your division, performance has to be a consideration. He started off well, but his bat has definitely cooled off, after collecting a hit in his only AB last night, he is back up to .222 BA, to go with a .522 OPS. While Adron’s season stats have been less than impressive, he has hit very well this past week, 8-24 (.333) with 4 BB to 3 SO. If he keeps that up then it will only add to the pressure of trying to keep Komatsu when everybody returns. This team is too strong a contender to keep a non-productive bat for the entire season. Komatsu will not last, unless he turns it around.
You base this on a whopping 13 plate appearances? It’s pretty hard to hit worth a hoot with an AB every couple of days. Chambers, on the other hand, is playing and hitting every day. Komatsu’s stats literally mean nothing. The Cards may well return Komatsu – I just doubt it. I’m not saying I support the decision, I am ambivalent about it. It’s just my opinion that if they weren’t serious about keeping him, he would have already been returned. It’s possible they are just using him to plug a hole, but if so, I don’t know why they didn’t plug the hole with one of our own.
And also, I think that the Cards are comfortably (so far) on the top of the Division only increases Komatsu’s chances of sticking. You are right, they are almost playing with a 24 man squad, but it clearly isn’t hurting the club.
If they continue to lead a weak division, I think they can carry him and then deactivated him for the playoffs. They can also cover for him in September when the rosters expand. Finally I believe they only have to have him active for 90 days from the beginning of the season until September 1st. They can hide him on the DL whatever is that remainder time with a phantom injury.
I would think the DL solution may be difficult – I would think they watch that kind of thing with this type of situation fairly closely
Actually, I think they are lax about it so long as the player gets his 90 days in, i.e. the season from April 1st through August 31st is about 150 days, so I do think there could be a couple of 15 day DL’s meaning that they have to carry him for 4 or the first 5 months, which if they are winning in a weak division they should be able to do.
It does not matter whether somebody likes Komatsu or dislikes him, if Craig and Berkman return, and if there are not new injuries, there is simply no place on the roster for Komatsu. He will have to be traded or offered back to Washington.
Komatsu is an extra body, while Chambers gets more training at AAA. If a roster numbers crunch arrives, Komatsu is expendable. He will have done his job by giving us a month or two of an extra guy.
It does not matter whether the Organization (aka “somebody”) likes Komatsu? Like I said, I’m ambivalent, but that line of thinking seems a little far fetched. Feel free to argue that the Organization doesn’t like him enough to keep him which is contrary to what my take is, but it absolutely DOES matter what the Cards think of him in terms of what decision will be made.
If the organization likes Komatsu enough, they will make room for him and move another part, whether that means sending down Robinson or Carpenter or trading someone from the roster. So yes, it matters.
If the Cards retain Komatsu over Robinson or Carpenter, this will show that they like him a lot. I doubt they will keep Komatsu around. When Allen Craig returns, we will probably ship him back to Washington.
So is anybody worried about the lack of wins in our system so far this year. I realize that the top goal is developing talent for the major league club, not winning games–but my question is does winning in the minors have any relationship to winning in the majors?
I doubt it, but sounds like a research project…..Wasn’t the Johnson City championship two years ago the first win in the system in several years…..(or was that just JC?) I know the QC championship last year was the first at the A level in some ten years or something like that. So, with those loose facts(?), I would say winning in the minors has no relationship to the MLB level. However, I do know that Mo has stated he likes winning rings in the minors from time to time if it can be accomplished in conjunction with development goals – but I don’t think that was something mentioned much in the past.
This is a great question. Context is everything. In 2000, Memphis won the PCL with a league-leading pitching staff led by Clint Weibl and Mark Nussbeck, and an offense ignited by Stubby Clapp and powered by Ernie Young.
Other than Albert Pujols’ coming-out party in the playoffs, the title meant nothing.
In 2009, Memphis won the title with monster second-half performances by Allen Craig, Jon Jay, and David Freese. Jaime Garcia returned from TJ surgery. (Mark Hamilton and Tyler Greene also put up good numbers.) Interestingly, not one of those guys was named to the top 20 prospects list or all-star team. But what they did in the second half of 2009 presaged the final 2 months of 2012.
Correlation? Coincidence? No idea. But at the time I remember thinking there was something special about that group, and now we have a world championship to suggest maybe I was right.
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply I had special insight. That’s what I get for typing while pretending to listen to someone in the room!
You were right!
The GM has very little to do with milb development.
Luhnow stated in a previous year that although people were down on the system (ranked low) each level stayed in contention. Seems to me the past few years is all levels are played like a puzzle, trying to find the pieces that fit by moving players back and forth, in the farm since Vuch took over.
The philosophy has always been TEAM, from the lowest level to the highest. You tell a player who is at the highest level doing his job better than anyone else he has to go down and “help” a team and expect them to be happy? Moving Carp and Green down would be tough. Most players move down because they need to work on certain skills.
If you can’t use them at that level, trade them for someone who can.
I guess I was thinking more of winning in general, rather than winning minor league championships. It’s early but Memphis, Springfield, and Palm Beach are all at the bottom of their divisions right now. I guess I’m wondering if part of player development is teaching players how to do the things necessary to win ball games? If it is, then the poor start our top three clubs have gotten off to is problematic.
Again, I think it’s a great question, and I wonder the same thing.
We’ve changed managers at a couple of levels, and certainly injuries have affected Memphis (a team that was counting on Hill, Hamilton, and Luna, along with a couple of guys who’re in St. Louis, like M. Carp and Robinson). Maybe that explains the poor performances so far.
But it’s certainly something to keep an eye on.
Memphis won the pcl in 09 and Palm Beach won the league about 06 or 07 and Batavia in 09 as well. I would not be surprised if they try to work out a deal for Komatsu. Maybe for a couple of mid-level prospects. Clearly, Robinson and Carpenter deserve to be kept more.
I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure it is about who deserves it more – it is simply about acquiring a player and what it takes to accomplish that without giving up anything.
The last rule 5 OF we had was Brian Barton. Barton was an extra guy one year and we ended up letting him move on. Komatsu brings to mind Barton.
Didn’t Barton stay the whole year?
Yes he did. But, did we do him any favors?
I’ve been on both sides of this argument so clearly don’t feel strongly one way. Komatsu seems to be a fine player and was a nice rule 5 grab. But, like Barton, may not remain worth the sacrifice made to keep him.
As much as I like his skillset, I’m having trouble distinguishing it from Robinson’s (Ok – hitting from different sides of the plate), Chambers’ and even Jay’s. Perhaps it’s my own fatal flaw but I don’t see Komatsu helping the team very much this year. If we find Matheny using him less and less, essentially hiding the guy what does that do for his development?
I used to think he’d be the last one to go. But, I think Robinson’s and Carpenter’s successes have changed the game plan. Heck, if the season were to end right now, I’d consider Carpenter for ROY.
It’s possible Washington can be convinced to trade for him. There are machinations within the rule 5 system, like what happened to us a couple years ago with a reliever, that could preclude his return to their roster. Perhaps that would induce a trade. I would prefer sending Komatsu to the minors to allow him continued development. He isn’t quite a ML’er yet.
Washington said they have no intention of trading for him if he is returned.
And they probably need him more now for depth than when they said that.
I think the restrictions on keeping a Rule 5 pick have two parts. Before you send such a pick to the minors, you have to BOTH offer him back to the team from which he was picked AND he has to go through waivers, giving another team other than Washington the chance to claim him and keep him for the remainder of the season. Not likely that that the other 28 teams would pass on him since there are plenty of bad teams that could use him for their futures. If fact, I would think that Luhnow had some input into the pick before he left for Houston, and everyone knows he will pick up whatever prospects he can find since Houston is so shallow.
Eh I was probably over-reacting
I could see possibly keeping Komatsu on the major league roster if he had tremendous upside but I just dont see it and haven’t really heard anyone say that he does either. Is he going to be anymore than a 4th OF even with more minor league seasoning? Do you handicap a team in contention to keep hold of a 4th OF type? I dont.
So deosn Komatsu feel more pressure now that Chamber’s has a near .800 OPS? :)