Tough night for hitting prospects as Matt Adams got tossed in the bottom of the 9th inning (presumably arguing balls and strikes since it was in the middle of an at-bat) and Springfield was the victim of a no-hitter. Today’s best individual performances were probably both from Quad Cities as Sam Gaviglio pitched 8 innings and Juan Castillo homered and walked twice. Details after the jump…
- Adron Chambers and Steven Hill each had 2 hits.
- Ryan Jackson had 1 hit and 1 walk.
- Mark Hamilton had a double.
- Matt Adams was 1-for-3 with a walk before being ejected in the middle of his 9th inning at-bat.
- Eugenio Velez had 1 hit and stole his 10th base of the season.
- Bryan Anderson was 1-for-3.
- Amaury Cazana walked in a pinch-hit appearance.
- Steven Hill, Ryan Jackson, and Adron Chambers all committed errors but Chambers was able to redeem himself by throwing out runners at second base and home plate.
- Shelby Miller lasted 6 innings but gave up 8 hits, 1 walk, and 4 runs (3 ER); he struck out 6.
- Adam Reifer gave up 1 run in 2 innings; he also had a strike out.
- Chuckie Fick also allowed a run to score on 2 hits and 1 walk.
- Jermaine Curtis and Greg Garcia each drew a walk.
- Four NW Arkansas pitchers (Greg Holland, Chris Dwyer, Brendan Lafferty, and Kendal Volz) combined to no-hit a Springfield Cardinals lineup that included both Kolten Wong & Oscar Taveras.
- Trevor Rosenthal had an abbreviated outing (4.2 IP) that included quite a few base-runners (6 H, 2 BB). He allowed 2 runs (both earned) but did strike out 6 hitters.
- Kevin Thomas had 2 strikeouts in 1.2 hitless/scoreless innings.
- Jorge Rondon allowed 1 hit, 1 walk, and struck out 1 batter in his inning.
- Justin Wright pitched a perfect 8th inning.
- Starlin Rodriguez was 2-for-4, the only player for Palm Beach that had a multi-hit game.
- Mike O’Neill, Ronny Gil, Chris Edmonson, Alan Ahmady, Nicholas Longmire, and Geoff Klein all had 1 single.
- Alan Ahmady and Rainel Rosario each had 1 walk.
- Anthony Ferrara had a so-so outing: 5 IP, 7 H, 3 BB, 3 R (1 ER), and 5 K.
- Chris Corrigan struck out 2 batters in 2 innings but allowed 1 run on 1 walk and 2 hits.
- Logan Billbrough pitched a perfect inning with 2 strikeouts.
- Juan Castillo was 2-for-3 with a HR and 2 walks.
- Luis Mateo also homered.
- Anthony Garcia was 3-for-5 with a double.
- Garrett Wittels was 2-for-4 with a double.
- Nick Martini had 1 hit and 1 walk.
- Colin Walsh added 2 walks.
- Sam Gaviglio had a solid start: 8 IP, 3 H, 1 BB, 2 R (1 ER), and 6 K.
- Heath Wyatt picked up the save despite allowing 1 run on 2 walks.
Entries (RSS)
Adams got tossed from the game, but so did the opposition catcher. They got thrown out at the same time so was Matt arguing balls and strikes or did he take exception to an up-and-in pitch and start jawing with the catcher? Does anyone know for sure?
The catcher from Reno was not tossed. I just watched on milbtv and Matt on a 2 and 1 count got a pitch that the announcer said was 6 inches off the plate outside and it was called a strike. Adams looked back at the ump, said something? and was ejected. He didn’t even see the ejection sign as he looked back at the pitcher and started to get ready for the next pitch. I would be interesting to know what he said to the ump?
Time for a Bull Durham reference?
Every DFR Andy Beard does, I read his name as Andy Bernard. My Mind automatically goes to “The Office.”
If I watched the office enough, I’d make a really clever reference right about now…
Miller pitched very well – a lot of grounders found holes on him. He had 97 pitches through 6. The groundball hits and the error(s) drove his pitchcount up or he would have made it through 7 IMO.
Rosie pitched well – of his six hits given up, two were flares/bloops, one was a bunt, one was a grounder, and two were liners. The runs both scored on the flares/bloops. He threw a lot of curves – some at the beginning of the at-bat, one which I thought was fairly impressive was at the end of a pitch eating at-bat with a 3-2 count to get a weak out. It seems to me that he could be more aggressive, but he is really working his secondary pitches and the edges/corners which is driving his pitchcount up. Whether this is part of a plan or Rosie not being aggressive, I don’t know. He hasn’t really ever struck me as a timid sort, so I tend to believe he is really working on refining his command and this is apparently what he has to go through to do it. Rosie was pulled because his pitches were at 92 – he could have finished the inning, but they are clearly not stretching him at all.
With all due respect, not finishing the 5th in AA isn’t pitching “well,” and Miller certainly didn’t pitch “very well” yesterday. What Rosenthal has established so far is that he isn’t an efficient pitcher yet, and that he can’t go deep into games. 7 starts/35ip, and 21 walks in those same 35 innings, isn’t a testament to success as a starter long-term, certainly not the much-hyped ‘top of the rotation’ starter that a couple of posters repeatedly bill him as.
I’ve seen him live twice this year, which is an extremely small sample, and in both of those outings he showed flashes of being a really good pitcher. He’s young for the league, and it is easy to take for granted how difficult a leap it is to skip a level, particularly as a pitcher into a hitter’s league. It is entirely reasonable for Rosenthal, or anyone, to experience some growing pains. But that is exactly what was going on last night. Every player, not just Rosenthal, is “working” his pitches. Every pitcher (including MLB pitchers) have bad defensive plays made behind him, some of which don’t get scored as errors. Hopefully almost ever pitcher in the system is working on things that will benefit their career and the team in the long run, and are willing to sacrifice short term results to do so. Every pitcher in Springfield, including Gast who is off to an unbelievable start, pitches with the same general defensive alignment behind him.
I usually don’t log on to the site the day after Rosenthal pitches—and I’m not calling you out about this specifically as I don’t pay much attention to poster handles—because of a couple of posters who alternate between: (1) overpraise of this guy as the second coming; and (2) an unabashed source of excuses for poor performance. In the latter case, which has unfortunately been more necessary thus far (it is still very early), it makes the site much less enjoyable for fans of the ‘system’, not just particular players. This is becoming a situation akin to Blake King from a couple of years ago, in which a poster, who clearly had some kind of relationship with a player, engaged in a relentless PR campaign.
Sorry to vent, and I’m not trying to pick on you in particular. Honestly, it is a couple of posters that have been doing this, and I try to skip over such posts and avoid the site following Rosenthal’s starts to the extent possible. I forgot he pitched last night, and I guess that is my mistake for logging in this morning.
We are all pulling for Rosenthal, and frankly most of us are rooting for all of the big prospects to have a great year in 2012. Lost in all this noise was the best night of Gaviglio’s career last night. Also great to see Wong and Taveras back in the lineup, presumably fully healed, last night.
i’m assuming you are referring to me as one of the Rosenthal lovers….just know that i agree with most of what you are saying
i still think he is a great prospect who is likely to be a quality ML starter, but realize he is having issues with command and efficiency in AA….having said that, he did just jump two levels and is one of the younger pitchers in the league.
I’ve been cautiously impressed that he hasn’t been getting shelled (notorious hitters park in a hitters league).
No excuses from me, just my feeling on the situation
Good idea – stay off the website. I write what I believe. If you don’t like it, tough – don’t read it. I do it for those that understand a stat line is not all there is to know. You clearly think stats – especially in a developing environment – is all there is. You would be wrong. There is a reason why Rosenthal skipped PB. Guess what? It wasn’t because of the stats he posted at Quad Cities.
Rosenthal’s SO’s per 9 are high, his hits allowed are low, his groundball rate is high, and his BB’s are high. Dig a little deeper and you see he had 6 BB’s in one outing. The remaining outings weren’t terrific, but not terrible BB wise.
If you like Gaviglio, I suggest you write about him. I will be pleased to read detail on another prospect. I don’t have time to get into detail on every kid. I am however interested. What velocity does he have? What does he throw? Give me some “noise”…..
Gast is having a great year. He had a nice write-up over at MiLB. He has the odds against him though. His velocity is not very high – maybe 92 tops? That he is just now starting to throw a 4 seamer was something I found incredible. I have to wonder why our pitching coaches didn’t bring this up earlier. Kid has great stats, but I personally can’t get too excited about his possibilities although I would love for him to succeed. On the other hand, I am again happy to read why someone thinks the great stats he is posting now will carry him to the St. Louis roster.
Right now we have 4 viable big league pitching prospects IMO – Miller, CMart, Rosenthal and Jenkins (and I would rank them in that order). Therefore, those are the four I’m most interested in. Like I said, if you don’t care about details on those four, please tune out.
Althought lefties don’t have to throw as hard so a 92 MPH fastball is fine with me. I probably threw harder than John Tudor and he was one of my favorite pitchers ever.
92 is PLENTY for a lefty
That’s not where he works, it is where he touches (and just recently with the 4 seamer addition). I’m not saying he can’t be a fabulous finesse lefty, I’m just saying the odds are longer. Based on what I read, he works 89-90. He better be changing arm angles constantly to be successful. It can be done. But for a starter, I don’t think 89-90 is plenty for a LHP, but that is just my opinion – it’s plenty if he has pinpoint control – but that can be true of a RHP as well. The truth is that Gast’s #1 attribute is his pick-off. I’m not sure that gets you to the Bigs.
Disagree with you here and I’ve seen Gast pitch too. He’s good. Jaime Garcia works 89-91.
Gast has a good fastball that he can locate and a very effective curveball. I put him in the second tier pitching prospects.
Tier 1- Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal, Jenkins
Tier 2 – Swagerty, Kelly, Gast, Gorgen
I think Jenkins ranks higher than rosenthal and most would agree. A lot higher of a celing and potential in my opinion.
Ehhh……Not sure about that. Each have good points on why they are the better prospects.
Rosenthal throws harder and sits higher and has better secondary pitches. He has less room to improve. Closer to his ceiling physically.
Jenkins is a better athlete, his stuff currently isn’t as good as Rosenthals but he can more room left to reach his ceiling if he does.
Yes, this board gets overly optomistic. But that optimicim is at least based on some shreds of proof.
I would take the overly optomisic view over the Anit-Larussa, Anti-Holliday, Anti-Mo, Anti-Ownership, unfounded bashing you find on the post.
LaRussa is gone
I also agree that stat lines do not tell the whole story of what went on that game, however, that would be for the reader to read the game summary to determine, not sure why there always seems to be excuses as to performance, it should NEVER be that way, players themselves don’t do it, they put the game behind them and move onto the next.
AA and AAA are a different place than low or high A. These guys are young, very young, they will learn and adjust. I feel for their struggles, but they will emerge as better pitchers for it.
But I am sure they would never give excuses for their performances or blame their team for poor defensive performance because that is the game.
Now getting some run support to help the pitcher out is a whole different discussion. :)
A game summary can often paint a better pitcher than a stat line. But people who actually SAW the game or at least listened to the game paint an even better pitcher than the stat line.
For example Rosenthals 31 pitch first. If I see three singles in a row they could be rockets which would indicate his stuff isn’t fooling or overmatching anyone on the other team. They could be weak grounders that should have been counted as errors. Without someone listening or watching we don’t know.
Knowing the context is often important in the game, and personally don’t see it as making excuses. I’m as hard on Rosenthal as anyone because I have seen what he can do when he’s at his best but its worthwile to know that despite the fact he has pretty darn good stats for jumping High A and being one of the youngest pitchers in the league he is actually throwing better than his stats.
Where do you get “excuses”?
I say Miller gave up 8 hits – not a liner in any of them. Where is the excuse? He gave up groundballs that found holes. If you don’t think that matters in the evaluation of the outing, then we just disagree.
Same with Rosenthal. Where is the excuse? He gave up two liners (two more than Miller did). The other four hits were either Texas Leaguers, a bunt or a grounder.
So, 100% of Miller’s allowed hits were on the ground, and a minimum 50% of Rosenthal’s hits were soft.
Let me explain something folks. If either one of these guy goes out and throws 6 hitless innings next time out, they will be the same pitcher they were in their last performance. But I guess Enigma and Pitch will think that all of a sudden they are good pitchers when before they weren’t. To each his own, I guess.
We never said they were not good pitchers, if you look back and really read what I have said, I understand. More than you know.
I see the stat line, I understand they are in learning mode, why does Andrew (aka scadder) and yourself have to give us reports as to whether the ball was hit hard or soft, that the defense messed up and why they came up short, what this means what that means and why it took 31 pitches to get out of an inning and the blooper ball wasn’t fielded right or the run wouldn’t have scored, etc. etc. This is the game, this is the game on any level. The pitcher can only control so much and we get that. No one has to explain an outing or an at bat.
The DFR is what it is, a short capsule of the previous nights game, no it doesn’t tell the whole story, again we get that.
Gast is a mature college pitcher trying just like the others to make it to the show. Why be negative about other players? Seems it’s ok to do that but no one can make comments against Miller or Rosenthal without hearing why, when, where, how. I think that was Enigma’s point and I got it.
Gast, if he continues will be there before miller and rosenthal, probably as a lh reliever. But then again this game is so unpredictable, that is why I don’t get people predicting when a player will arrive in STL!
You should have been around years ago when the descriptions of the players outings included words such as he sucked, etc. You would have gone nuts. Az has really cleaned up the place, I can attest to that. We’ve had discussions about situations that can affect a pitcher outing.
Change arm angles?
My issue is not with the players (pitchers and hitters) but with the organization pushing them when they don’t have to at this time (especially pitchers). I don’t get the benefit of skipping any level (even if there for a month) or starting at one you were at last season.
That’s my opinion and I am sticking to it.
Rosenthal has absolutely handled the best hitter in the Texas League – Wil Myers. That means he can handle anybody at AA. I’m not exactly sure how you can see it differently. You have some bias toward pitchers that skip a level for whatever reason – no problem, it is what it is. I’m pretty confident the Organization does not agree with you, and for good reason.
I didn’t bring up Gast. Enigma did, so I commented. He also brought up Gaviglio. I expounded that I would be pleased to read more about him……but it seems stat lines is all he is interested in. I explained I don’t have time to follow everybody.
Again, I put an analysis together of what really happened vs. the stat line because it tells you where the pitcher is in terms of development. Again, if you think it is irrelevant, don’t read it. Taking me to task for writing that a hit was soft vs. a liner just seems silly. There is information in the statement whether you happen to be interested in it or not.
Even if the DFR is just a short summary that doesn’t mean that the thread that goes with it can’t be more detailed iwth people who saw the game. It’s always good when there are eyes on the game or if a mod goes and comes back with a report of the series and various players. It makes it more enjoyable. If I was just looking for stats I could go to http://www.milb.com and look through it. To me the DFR is about discussing players and their development.
Pitch- You must not have read much of what I wrote because I’m much tougher on Miller and Rosenthal than most. In fact people on another site I’m on believe I go out of my way to rip Miller whenever there is a chance. Obviously that isn’t the case. I’m in the process of watching his game yesterday. I”ve gone at bat by at bat. In the first 2 innings he’s gotten ahead of batters. Put them away. The first hit was with 2 outs no one on 0-2 count where he went to a curveball 2 times in a row and the player hit one opposite field for a single. A good piece of hitting. The second inning starts off with a 3 base error that was a pop of that Hill missed in RF but then kind of looked up in disgust not knowing the ball hit his glove in fair territory before rolling foul. He scored on a sac fly. Starting the 3rd Miller went 0-2 on the leadoff hittter and threw a good curve that the hitter hit so weakly it barely made it to the SS who couldn’t get him in time at first. Thats 2 hits neither squared.
If pitchers aren’t advanced to the level where they struggle/have to develop then they won’t get better. Would Miller have gotten any better at Palm Beach last year? He dominated from the start and it took him 2 months because of his reluctance to work on his off speed stuff. HE got the point started working on it and was promoted. The players are at the levels they are for a reason. They are there because the organization thinks they can handle it but hard enough that they will grow as a player.
There ya go, letting us know what this meant and what that meant.
You do a good job of assuming you know what it all means, you don’t.
Enigma commented on other players, I got his point, it’s good to hear about other prospects in the system. He was not negative.
Why not just sit back and enjoy it all and watch them grow up? You are the ones analyzing, not us.
I understand more than you might think I do, I gave my opinion, but I guess that’s not allowed?
I’m always happy to hear about other players…write away.
You say you don’t like what I write (read my opinion), then say your opinion is not allowed? That is just bizarre. Read what I write or don’t read it. i could frankly care less. But to then imply that I shouldn’t be posting is simply ridiculous…….”why not jut sit back and enjoy it all” Then why even have this Board? So a poster can just say “good outing” or “bad outing”?? We can all do that by just going out to MiLB.com and skip this Board – there is very little in a DFR other than highlighted stats. It’s a nice summary of our System’s daily outing. I thought the comments section were to discuss what actually happened. My bad.
Go back and read what Enigma originally posted, I agree. Absolutely discussion should be allowed about everyone.
If you are involved with a player here, it’s really a great idea to be objective towards that player and not be negative about others.
I think that was the point that was being made by Enigma.
I am a big fan of many players in the system (as well in STL), but I am sure they aren’t true prospects to you so not worthy of discussion.
They are real good kids trying to make a living at what they love to do. Same as those top tier players.
You are right, I don’t have to read what you guys right, therefore, enjoy the rest of the season!
If you want to discuss a certain player bring them up and we can discuss them. Most likely I’ve seen them seeing as I was at Spring Training for a week the last 2 years. I go to multiple Quad City games every year also. I’d love to talk about other prospects. I just talk about the main guys because well they have the best chance of making it.
Your entire post is simply devoid of logic.
I have NEVER said don’t discuss anybody – YOU did!
Because I enjoy my role of being one of the few people on this site to purshace MILB.tv which allows me to watch and listen to games others only look at box scores. I do it because I enjoy it.
It’s the same as me wanting to comment on players when I pay my way down to Spring Training to watch. We think people on the site appreciate more than just the box scores.
Do you beleive you are the only one who pays to view or listens?
Or been to spring training?
I am not a scout, it’s not my job to evaluate a player’s performance and to why this or that occured even if I watched on TV, because in reality, it doesn’;t matter what you or I or anyone else thinks because we have no clue what they do.
Keep up the good work andrew!
I’m sure some people do. But again whats the point of a DFR if we don’t discuss what happens in them? I got on you about 2 weeks ago because you were whining about what our system would do without Luhnow. Yes, he will be missed but you seemed to imply multiple times that in the 6 months he’s been gone theres been a radical change and teh organization shouldn’t be doing things the way they are. Obviously YOU have a connection with someone that you aren’t leading on to and who isn’t happy about something. I get that you like the teams to be successful and the players feeling like winner at all but Luhnow was also agressive with promotions.
Relevance?
Who cares if everyone watches or just some watch? If you see something and wish to write about it, I will be the first one to appreciate it.
I don’t think many here are scouts. It doesn’t mean we aren’t tuned in baseball fans with reasonable opinions.
Again, I have no idea what you are trying to say other than Andrew should not write about what he sees. Simply bizarre.
You make too much sense, Andrew. Just read the stat lines and keep it to yourself….
For the record, if Rosenthal or Miller give up no hits and get a ton of line-outs, I will be the first to say the outing wasn’t as good as it looked.
I love this mock draft (less than a month away!)
http://seedlingstostars.com/2012/05/02/s2s-2012-mock-draft-1st-round-v-2-0/
I’d be happy with that first round.
i’d be estatic
Thanks for the insights, RCH, and the link, Vols.
Prediction: Taveras & Wong combine for 4 hits tonight, with two doubles and a longball.
Since the season’s dismal first week, Anthony Garcia has hit .341/.432/.537, with a solid 12/21 BB/K ratio over 95 plate appearances. The strikeouts are a bit high, but otherwise the 20-year-old is looking terrific right now.
I’m glad he’s hitting better because he was down right bad those first few games.
How can I continue to be excited Shelby Miller when I think back to how dominant Brad Thompson was in AAA.
Brad Thompson’s AAA career:
142.2 ip, 4.73 era, 10.6 h/9, 1.6 bb/9, 5.9 k/9.
Fear not.
because shelby has much better stuff and is one of the youngest pitchers in AAA…every game he faces at least one former major leaguer
Yeah, I couldn’t find his stats, so he wasn’t dominant coming up. I was remembering after he was with Cards they sent him down about three times and he would pitch strong games. My error.
Thomson was great in AA (50 inning shutout streak, in particular), but no one ever saw him as more than a possible #3/4 starter.
Shelby’ K rate is sooo good, I’m not worried about the ERA much at all (maybe a 3 on a 1-10 scale).
it’s hard to be disappointed with a 6-1 K/BB ratio over six innings. but people will try.
I’m a lot more disappointed with the Memphis defense than I am with Shelby. He’s coming along fine.
It’s offense, these guys have to strike early to give the pitcher some breathing room, then it will all fall into place.