Cardinals Sign Carson Kelly and Max Foody
Posted on June 14th, 2012 by Jeff in 2012 MLB Draft, MLB Draft(Sorry for the ugly post, the editor is not working right.)
As expected, the Cardinals signed Carson Kelly. Jim Callis has the details:
“#Cardinals agree w/2nd-rder Carson Kelly on $1.6 mil. Highest over value ($574,300) so far in #mlbdraft. Oregon HS 3B/RHP is 2-way talent.”
Before that signing, the Cardinals were on pace to be $778,610 under their pool
Carson Kelly’s pick value of $574,300 adds another approximately $1 million over slot. That puts the Cardinals currently on pace to be $221,390 over slot. Considering savings for James Ramsey in the 1st rounder looks to be at least $1 million.
The Cardinals have also signed Max Foody for $400k per Kendall Rogers of Perfect Game USA:
“#Cardinals 12th-rdr and talented LHP Max Foody signed for $400K. Pick value for Foody was $100K. #FloridaState signee.”
So, the Cardinals put $300k back against that cap. I imagine the Cardinals will also get some small savings with Alex Mejia and Kurt Heyer in the 4th and 6th round.
That would leave the Cardinals $500,000 over slot to work with pending Ramsey, Mejia and Heyer’s deals. That seems like it would be enough over slot to sign Trey Williams for up to $600k.
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Oh, happy day. Carson Kelly was the key to this draft for me. You add Trey Williams, and that’s icing on the cake.
I guess it is possible the Ramsey deal is for around $500K which would give us even more towards Williams but who know at this point.
I think it’ll be closer to 750k. Highly doubt he’s willing to take less than what Patrick Wisdom got.
I seriously doubt Ramsey would agree to take that kind of paycut cc. He was a top 100 prospect for the draft. What’s the biggest discount other seniors have taken in the first round?
He’s a senior…doesn’t have much choice
He may have been a top prospect (from a very dismal draft class) but he was a senior with no leverage, that means that any team can offer what they want and it becomes a take it or leave it situation. He basically had no choice.
The player probably had to been advised to take less for the higher slot status .
No other seniors in first round.
Normally I would agree Ramsey has no leverage as a senior but when the Cards drafting him in the first round they handed him leverage. Our draft is hosed if we don’t sign him. The over slot signings we have already made dictate that we have to save a ton of money on Ramsey. He loses big if he doesn’t sign but so do the Cardinals. We completely lose his slot money in our pool if we dont’ sign him.
All that said, I am near certain we have an oral deal in place for Ramsey but have not consummate the deal yet because he is playing in the CWS. Can’t image we would have already signed guys over slot without knowing exactly what we are saving on Ramsey.
BTW, friend of Foody gave us the right info a few days back.
I am sure there is a verbal deal in place. You’re right that handed him a lot leverage but from all accounts he is a high character guy so I wouldn’t expect to him to try and change the terms of a previous agreement.
I agree. I wouldn’t have thought the Cardinals would have drafted him without a pretty good idea of what it will take to sign him. Kinda like I think the Cardinals called Kelley to see what kind of money it would take to get him to pass up on Eugene.
given the new structure of the draft, getting the correct information regarding what a player will sign for is incredibly important.
ramsey already has very little leverage. if he agreed to sign for, let’s say, $600,000, reneged and said “give me $1.5m or your draft is screwed,” he’d be in an even worse position. because then he’d be playing in the indy leagues for a year AND coming back in 2013 with a rep as a guy who reneges on his promises. what team is going to give him even fifth round money after that? no one will want to take a chance on a guy who’s broken a promise once.
there’s also a strong likelihood that his agent/”advisor” would get caught up in any collateral response from other clubs. i’m sure every “advisor” sits down and says, very seriously, to his client, “if you promise to sign for $X, you better sign for $X.”
Wacha also signed, and in Goold’s article, he explains how he didn’t have much leverage:
“I think in past years they had (the deadline) way later in the year and they didn’t have those slot amounts (so) guys were holding out and waiting to see if they could negotiate to see how much they could get,” Wacha said. “With this new (collective bargaining agreement) they have recommended amounts and there’s really no negotiations that you can really do. Might as well sign early and get out there throwing.”
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/notebook-cards-sign-top-draft-pick/article_805b4c42-3b3a-570a-867a-538d199aa7b7.html#ixzz1xrgiWsff
what great news!
FUCK YEAH!
Cardinals are looking brilliant and need to be given credit for taking advantage of the new rules if they are able to sign Williams.
Right. On.
I love it. Foody is a real steal in 12th round and I feel like he could turn into a big time prospect with the proper development. I also wonder if, as a SS who can’t stick, Williams would potentially be given a shot at 2B if signed.
So we took Kelly in the second round but paid him 1.6 which is about 1.7 slot that we took Ramsey in in the first and then we drafted Ramsey in the first so we could paid him around what Kelly’s slot 570 was in the second. This still seems counter intuitive to me but I am glad that we got Kelly signed.
I think the plan was that they knew they could get Ramsey for below slot but knew that he wouldn’t make it very far in the draft if they passed on him with their second pick. The also knew that a good talent would fall to the second round that they could take a chance on.
You have to remember that if the Cardinals took Kelly at #23 and he didn’t sign, then they lose that slot money. They knew that they could sign Ramsey for below slot at #23 and if Kelly didn’t sign in round two, that they wouldn’t lose as much bonus money to spend on sign-ability kids falling past 10 rounds. This new draft is really involves a lot of strategy.
I was really pissed when we selected Ramsey and now see that this anger was misplaced. JMo and crew had a tight strategy. It might have been a bit risky in that it all depended on there being high upside players being available later in the draft for whom they could spend the saved slot $$$’s on but the Cards have pulled it off. Very masterful poker game played by our organization in my view. If we sign Trey Williams the organization will have killed it, a solid ‘A’.
Kelly signed for 1.6 million. His slot value was 574,300. He’s the biggest overslot signing in the draft so far good to see MO throwing the money at him he has a lot of upside with the bat and pitching as well. Signing Trey Williams will be more difficult now they now have 6 million left in the budget to spend.
I like this new rule on changing the signing deadline for draft picks on July 13th. Gives the picks more development time like a Kelly he needs these AB.
Sorry stand to correct myself they have Bonus Pool Availability: $2,995,900.
1.23 ($1,775,000)
James Ramsey OF/2B- $1,000,000
S.36 ($1,430,000)
Stephen Piscotty 3B/OF- $1,300,000
4.150 ($294,200)
Alejandro Mejia SS- $250,000
6.210 ($165,100) – $150,000
Kurt Heyer RHP-
Is there a website that tracks signings by each team? I did a couple of searches, but couldn’t find one. Thanks.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/draftdb/2012xteam.php?team=1019
Wacha officially put pen to paper yesterday…wacha wacha wacha!
Wonderful news. I think I’m now going to put this draft in the definitively “good” category. Getting Williams might just make it great. Still a little doubtful as to whether they can make that happen (I can’t see how they can offer him anywhere near $1m, probably 500-600k is all they’ll have) but fingers crossed.
Depends how much they really want him, FM. My understanding is a team can go 5% over their budget without losing future draft picks (though there is a tax to be paid). With the Cards budget this year, that is about $450,000. So, assuming that is not already taken into account in the above calculations, the Cards could use some or all of this money to sign Williams (and pay the penalty). It will be interesting to see what they do.
I’d kinda be surprised if they end up paying the “tax”, to me it almost seems a step too far (I think it’s about 80% as well, isn’t it? So a $1m sign for Williams could end up costing us $1.5m, say). You’re right that it’s an option but this always seems quite a financially conservative ballclub to me.
It looks like the draft is working rather well for the Cards.
However, although the new draft strategy seems to be just taking shape, doesn’t the Cards’ strategy seem quite risky, as it seems premised on the assumption that certain high upside picks will fall? This seems especially true for the Cards, since their second round pick was late in the round.
It would seem that a team would have to have a pretty good idea of whether other teams will allow certain players to drop in order to effectively pursue the strategy the Cards employed. Glad it seemed to work here.
I know Ramsey has limited leverage because he’s a senior, but my impression is that high-drafted seniors do not have to take huge payouts. Probably because the team knows they have to sign the player for the deaft to br considered a good one. Tgis is ancient history but what did Mortensen sign for? Does anyone know what the typical discount is for first or second round seniors? I know Ramsey should take a discount but some of the numbers I see thrown around are crazy steals.
Most seniors taken in the first ten rounds sign for a pittance (I think Matt Carpenter got about $10k, admittedly just outside the first ten), but there are so few seniors taken in rounds 1-2 that I kinda can’t see a historical precedent here.
I believe Mortensen got $650k in the supplemental. I didn’t realise he was a senior to be honest. I imagine they’ve got a verbal agreement with Ramsey to sign for ~0.5m.
Let’s not forget that there’s also Tate Matheny, who was selected against the advice of Mike, who would also be a tough sign away from college. Any money saved could be thrown his way as well. The kid put up ridiculous numbers in high school and comes from a great baseball family. I can’t find much on scouting reports about him other than that he’d have been a 7th – 10th rounder, but he did put up some absurd numbers in highschool.
Also a bit concerning to me, as has been noted before, is the amount of corner position players getting signed into the system from this draft. Hopefully they stick, especially Kelly. It’s never a bad thing to have an abundance of talent, as it can be traded and whatnot, but I guess I’d like to see a little more equal distribution amongst the positions.
He’ll go to school first as do most scouts, managers, coaches etc. sons.
Most players kids know how tough proball really is, they have more realistic views than others, I would be shocked if he signed.
Right, mathenys kid is not going to sign now
Felonious,
I realize most seniors sign for a few thousand dollars, but my point is that Mortensen and others taken in the first round or two seem to take a much much smaller discount. I’m not sure why Ransey would be different.
Is there any precedent for signing a 1/1A round player for “~0.5″?
Alex u r right. The cards will not take advantage of Ramsey. He will get about one million
The foody signing is only announced by Perfect Game.
I am close to Foody and card have not made offer or yet sighned him
Phil claims he is close to Foody and the Cards have not even made him an offer. What a farce!
Foody is seeking $400,000, in hopes the Cards will raise their bonus offer to $90,000 during July. the cards are not going to be favorably impressed by Max’s pals posting silly stuff on the Web. Guys who want to play have signed already.
Foody at 400 would be an absolute steal
He will sigh at 400.i know for a fact anything less he will go to fsu
The cards could sigh him at 400 now or pay him 2-3 mill in two years cuz he will be a first rounder for sure
Phil, Its a big country, with lots of ball players. the Cards are not going to pay Max more than he is worth. the more he wants, the less the Cards care about signing him. this is not our first rodeo. Max is is a $80k bonus talent, right now. If he wants $400k, he needs to go to FSU, excel, and earn the the bonus in the 2015 draft.
He is giving the card a discount at 400
Have u ever see him play …. He is nasty
He turned down offers in late third ,4,6,7,9 and one of those offers was by the card for a quarter
So why would they pick him again knowing that he would not sigh for anything less than his asking price
Phil, you are living in a fantasy world. max is rated 390 By MLB scouts. He is a $80k talent. He can’t fool the cards into offering five times what he is now worth. We like guys who are ready to play, like all the kids who have already signed.
If Max wants more money, he should go to Florida State and EARN it.
It depends on how much Ramsey sighns for
They can only get one player Foody or Williams
We will have to wait till the Cws is over to see what happens
Phil, Phil, Phil, Max, and Phil: give it up, how pathetic can you beg?
nothing depends on Ramsey. We are going to give him 7 digits, because, unlike Max, Ramsey has earned it. Max is just a high schooler. He is worth 5 digits bonus.
The Cards do want Trey Williams. They will offer him $500,000 or thereabouts.
Max needs to focus on his realistic choices and wake up. No more fantasies. Take the offer from the cards or go to FSU and improve.
Foody wants to play …. How could he sign/ play I they have not made an offer .
I am just trying to give some inside information
It’s not silly
What is
Silly is thinking he is worth 90k
I think he is worth 10x that
The kid has over come opsticals that 99percent of people would just give up you don’t even know every time he is knocked down he gets back up , he is a extremely hard worker and a natural born leader
Lol
Let the haters hate and Foody will still be great
I love how ur talking shit and u have never even seen the kid play
We shall see how this all pans out over the next week and see who is right
Phil, I love how you try to talk up Max’s value, when you cannot have seen pitchers all over the country, like scouts do. You think your classmate is a superstar! It’s nice of you to say nice things about Max. He can follow in the steps of James Ramsey and David Eckstein and become better at FSU.
Take what offer as I said before they have not offered him …
Phil, if the Cards have not made an offer, it would be because They are far apart from Max, dollar wise. we already have enough guys for summer teams and if we need anyone else, we can sign undrafted free agents who are glad to get a chance and do not want big bucks.
Lol o ya is that why teu have not signed up Williams too.. Like I said they are waiting for money to free up after sighning Ramsey
And again he turned down teams cuz the wanted to pay him slot so he was not 390 prospect
David eckstine went to uf …
I am not talking him up his play on the field does that
The cardinals brass said yesterday in an interview with stltoday that they would probably not have enough for both Williams and Foody. This indicates to me that they know that Williams and Foody are both worth more than the 100K that they could sign them for and not go against the budget. In that post it also showed that their strategy was to draft low sign guys and have enough left over to sign the tough signs. So Phil, I don’t know if they will be able to offer Foody what he wants, but they are going to offer him something in line with his true talent level. I would say he should of went in round 4-6. Earlier if he had never had the injury problems, but shoulder problems Hirt draft stock because they are hard to truly get over and often keep coming back.
True true I said that in earily post that they would not be able to sighn on or the other
I think they will sign Foody because they drafted and sighned many third baseman all ready in this draft and very few if not any lhp